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How does this entire article get written without a single mention that much of the road infrastructure here, bridge included, had been privatized and was being

by dv_dt 8y ago

How does this entire article get written without a single mention that much of the road infrastructure here, bridge included, had been privatized and was being managed by the Atlantia corporation. The article actually seems to put the reader on the mistaken impression that Autostrade (former name of Atlantia) is some sort of media management company. "Autostrade, which handles media queries on behalf of the subcontractor, Spea Engineering, declined to comment." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/italy-bridge-collapse-genoa-atlantia-autostrade-concession-with-causes-unclear/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/italy-bridge-collapse-genoa-atl... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantia_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantia_(company) The technical specifics of the bridge collapse are interesting, but the privatization of multiple road systems should have in theory let the company be cognizant of the systemic issues of the design practices of various eras, but how was this missed? The company was managing the bridge since 1999, almost twenty years now. This is as much or more of an organizational question as well as a private vs public ownership question as it is a technical one.

UAREWRONG 8y ago
bro you are dead wrong. dead wrong. LITERALLY FROM THE ARTICLE "There is now fierce debate in Italy over whether the company did in fact do enough — along with calls to roll back the privatization of much of Italy’s roadways. Autostrade won the concession to run nearly half of Italy’s highways from a cash-strapped Italian government, starting in 1999. After that, there were no major renovations of the Morandi bridge. In late 2017 or early 2018, tests indicated that the bridge had weakened by an “average” of 10 to 20 percent, Roberto Ferrazza, superintendent at the local ministry of infrastructure and transportation, told The Times in an interview. Experts in bridge construction say it is notoriously difficult to measure the exact amount of degradation of steel elements buried in concrete, in the way that they are on the Morandi bridge. “There’s nothing more imprecise than trying to evaluate the condition of internal cables,” said Gary J. Klein, a member of the National Academy of Engineering in the United States who studies structural failures and is executive vice president at Wiss, Janney, Elstner, an engineering and architecture firm in Northbrook, Ill. “It’s a very imperfect science.” Because the weakest point could be anywhere on the structure, Mr. Klein added, “you have to be in the right place at the right time, and so I’m very skeptical of the accuracy of any such estimate.” A decision was made, by Autostrade in accordance with the Ministry of Infrastructure, to refurbish and repair the stays on two towers, including the one that would collapse. But the work was not yet scheduled."
aboodman 8y ago
You read a different article than me: > He warned the company that manages the bridge, Autostrade per l’Italia, or Highways for Italy, but he said that it never followed up on his recommendation to perform a fuller computer study and to outfit the bridge with permanent sensors. > For reasons it has not fully explained, Autostrade, which took over management of the bridge in 1999, did not carry out the same operation on the supports of the other two towers — including the tower that collapsed. > Autostrade won the concession to run nearly half of Italy’s highways from a cash-strapped Italian government, starting in 1999. After that, there were no major renovations of the Morandi bridge. ... etc ...
- dv_dt 8y ago
  Why are they using the wrong name of the company? I think I missed it because I was looking for the Atlantia name. Looks like I did miss quite a few references that way!
  - aboodman 8y ago
    Looks like Atlantia is a conglomerate that has a large controlling interest in Autostrade per l'Italia and similar businesses. Autostrade per l'Italia is still a business entity, so it seems appropriate to me for the article to refer to it. http://www.atlantia.it/en/operations/italian-motorway-operations http://www.atlantia.it/en/operations/italian-motorway-operat... edit softened snarky language.
    - dv_dt 8y ago
      But why then treat Autostrade like a pr management entity? "Autostrade, which handles media queries on behalf of the subcontractor, Spea Engineering, declined to comment." I guess that's what bothers me a bit - is that there is a somewhat in depth investigation regarding the technical explanation, but a big shrug at hitting the wall on explanation of management failures, which IMHO should go all the way up thru the ownership conglomerate.
      - 8y ago
Aloha 8y ago
I'm honestly and sincerely wondering if you read the same article. "Autostrade won the concession to run nearly half of Italy’s highways from a cash-strapped Italian government, starting in 1999. After that, there were no major renovations of the Morandi bridge."
walterstucco 8y ago
Dear 5 star supporter, leave us alone, at least here on HN
lbeltrame 8y ago
> of the road infrastructure here, bridge included, had been privatized That's not correct. They're not privately owned: they're a sort of lease (I can't quite translate "concessione") because the government is still technically the one who onws it. And for those other HN readers, there's also a public-owned company that handles roads, Anas, which is not doing well with regards to maintenance (this just to put into perspective that's not just a public vs private thing).
- mig39 8y ago
  > (I can't quite translate "concessione") I think in English it's "concession" :-) "The right to use land or other property for a specified purpose, granted by a government, company, or other controlling body"

by dv_dt 8y ago

UAREWRONG 8y ago

bro you are dead wrong. dead wrong. LITERALLY FROM THE ARTICLE "There is now fierce debate in Italy over whether the company did in fact do enough — along with calls to roll back the privatization of much of Italy’s roadways. Autostrade won the concession to run nearly half of Italy’s highways from a cash-strapped Italian government, starting in 1999. After that, there were no major renovations of the Morandi bridge. In late 2017 or early 2018, tests indicated that the bridge had weakened by an “average” of 10 to 20 percent, Roberto Ferrazza, superintendent at the local ministry of infrastructure and transportation, told The Times in an interview. Experts in bridge construction say it is notoriously difficult to measure the exact amount of degradation of steel elements buried in concrete, in the way that they are on the Morandi bridge. “There’s nothing more imprecise than trying to evaluate the condition of internal cables,” said Gary J. Klein, a member of the National Academy of Engineering in the United States who studies structural failures and is executive vice president at Wiss, Janney, Elstner, an engineering and architecture firm in Northbrook, Ill. “It’s a very imperfect science.” Because the weakest point could be anywhere on the structure, Mr. Klein added, “you have to be in the right place at the right time, and so I’m very skeptical of the accuracy of any such estimate.” A decision was made, by Autostrade in accordance with the Ministry of Infrastructure, to refurbish and repair the stays on two towers, including the one that would collapse. But the work was not yet scheduled."

aboodman 8y ago

You read a different article than me: > He warned the company that manages the bridge, Autostrade per l’Italia, or Highways for Italy, but he said that it never followed up on his recommendation to perform a fuller computer study and to outfit the bridge with permanent sensors. > For reasons it has not fully explained, Autostrade, which took over management of the bridge in 1999, did not carry out the same operation on the supports of the other two towers — including the tower that collapsed. > Autostrade won the concession to run nearly half of Italy’s highways from a cash-strapped Italian government, starting in 1999. After that, there were no major renovations of the Morandi bridge. ... etc ...

dv_dt 8y ago
Why are they using the wrong name of the company? I think I missed it because I was looking for the Atlantia name. Looks like I did miss quite a few references that way!
- aboodman 8y ago
  Looks like Atlantia is a conglomerate that has a large controlling interest in Autostrade per l'Italia and similar businesses. Autostrade per l'Italia is still a business entity, so it seems appropriate to me for the article to refer to it. http://www.atlantia.it/en/operations/italian-motorway-operations http://www.atlantia.it/en/operations/italian-motorway-operat... edit softened snarky language.
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    But why then treat Autostrade like a pr management entity? "Autostrade, which handles media queries on behalf of the subcontractor, Spea Engineering, declined to comment." I guess that's what bothers me a bit - is that there is a somewhat in depth investigation regarding the technical explanation, but a big shrug at hitting the wall on explanation of management failures, which IMHO should go all the way up thru the ownership conglomerate.
    - 8y ago

Aloha 8y ago

I'm honestly and sincerely wondering if you read the same article. "Autostrade won the concession to run nearly half of Italy’s highways from a cash-strapped Italian government, starting in 1999. After that, there were no major renovations of the Morandi bridge."

walterstucco 8y ago

Dear 5 star supporter, leave us alone, at least here on HN

lbeltrame 8y ago

> of the road infrastructure here, bridge included, had been privatized That's not correct. They're not privately owned: they're a sort of lease (I can't quite translate "concessione") because the government is still technically the one who onws it. And for those other HN readers, there's also a public-owned company that handles roads, Anas, which is not doing well with regards to maintenance (this just to put into perspective that's not just a public vs private thing).

mig39 8y ago
> (I can't quite translate "concessione") I think in English it's "concession" :-) "The right to use land or other property for a specified purpose, granted by a government, company, or other controlling body"