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> Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin t

> Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant. This is only true for a definition of "consonant" and "dissonant" that is literally tautological. Yes, one can distinguish between consonant and dissonant, but the assignment of those as "pleasurable" and "not pleasurable" (which is the topic of the article) are incredibly culturally contextual. That is, you can construct a distinction between harmonies that one might label as consonant and dissonant, but the interpretation of that distinction is not universal. In fact, the relevance or applicability of that distinction is not even universal, because there are plenty of musical traditions where this wouldn't apply at all, and therefore couldn't be used to distinguish "pleasurable" and "not pleasurable" music. In reality, in the grand scheme of musical traditions, the classical European model of consonant, simple integer ratios is an outlier.

crazynick4 8y ago
I'm curious, which musical traditions favor music built on scales from dissonant intervals? Do you mean music which is more percussion oriented?
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  Balinese gamelan is played on metal instruments which don't have the same concept of consonance and whose overtones and scales have almost no relationship with Western music. Some eastern european folk uses minor-like scales but harmonies feature a major second, which is certainly not considered a consonant interval. In the West there's also jazz, which is based rather loosely on conventional Western harmony but uses unusually remote and dissonant chords. And the entire serial and post-classical academic tradition, which is self-consciously and deliberately anti-tonal and dissonant. In fact extremely consonant music is the exception.
  - crazynick4 8y ago
    Ok I see what you are saying. I guess I didn't really get this across but I'm not saying that more consonance always means more listening pleasure. As with the Pythagorean tunings, all consonance and no dissonance can become bland. Dissonant intervals are also a part of the harmonic series as you go further up. The major second that you mentioned is a 16:15 ratio. As far as Jazz chords, many are not as dissonant as you would think. The dominant seventh which makes up the entirety of the blues progression is generally considered dissonant because of the flat 7th, the most 'out of tune' note in western tuning. It actually is an attempt to approximate the interval formed between the 7th and 4th overtones which are a strong consonance. Dissonance is definitely a part of what makes music interesting. I wasn't trying to say that consonant intervals are the only reason for listening pleasure, just pointing out that there's some natural phenomena (harmonic series) that we're approximating or emulating with our music that can explain why we perceive music the way we do or why it sounds beautiful to us. I'm not familiar with gamelan but I found this interesting quote on the page regarding one of its tunings: > ..where instruments are played in pairs which are tuned slightly apart so as to produce interference beating. The beating is ideally at a consistent speed for all pairs of notes in all registers, producing stretched octaves as a result. This contributes to the very "agitated" and "shimmering" sound of gamelan ensembles. In the religious ceremonies that contain gamelan, these interference beats are meant to give the listener a feeling of a god's presence or a stepping stone to a meditative state. So in a way, even though the tuning system goes 'outside' the harmonic series, it doesn't completely ignore it but rather 'stretches' some of its intervals, which is what gives the music its otherworldly or mystical feeling.
soundwave106 8y ago
"Consonant" and "dissonant" are words that are indeed a bit too specific to the European music pedagogy as a whole. But I would argue that the "whole integer ratio" principle does actually extend a fair bit beyond Western classical. The lowest whole integer frequency ratios -- using Pythagorean terms and the ratios, octaves (2:1) and perfect fifths (3:2) -- seem to be present in the music systems of many music cultures, at least the ones I'm aware of. Perfect fourths (4:3) are also decently common in many music scales, although not quite as common as the other ratios. Beyond that, there is much variety and I'm not sure I can conclude anything (especially since my knowledge of scales and modes outside Western music is fairly limited). It just seems like most music systems in the world are aware of these core ratios at least. One other curiosity: I would say a huge percentage of music scales throughout the world tend to feature either seven or five notes (five notes actually is probably the more common one, if I had to take a guess). Unlike harmony, I'm honestly not sure why this is the case. Even gamelan scales are seven notes.
- crazynick4 8y ago
  Scales in Indian music are also built around integer ratios.

crazynick4 8y ago

I'm curious, which musical traditions favor music built on scales from dissonant intervals? Do you mean music which is more percussion oriented?

TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
Balinese gamelan is played on metal instruments which don't have the same concept of consonance and whose overtones and scales have almost no relationship with Western music. Some eastern european folk uses minor-like scales but harmonies feature a major second, which is certainly not considered a consonant interval. In the West there's also jazz, which is based rather loosely on conventional Western harmony but uses unusually remote and dissonant chords. And the entire serial and post-classical academic tradition, which is self-consciously and deliberately anti-tonal and dissonant. In fact extremely consonant music is the exception.
- crazynick4 8y ago
  Ok I see what you are saying. I guess I didn't really get this across but I'm not saying that more consonance always means more listening pleasure. As with the Pythagorean tunings, all consonance and no dissonance can become bland. Dissonant intervals are also a part of the harmonic series as you go further up. The major second that you mentioned is a 16:15 ratio. As far as Jazz chords, many are not as dissonant as you would think. The dominant seventh which makes up the entirety of the blues progression is generally considered dissonant because of the flat 7th, the most 'out of tune' note in western tuning. It actually is an attempt to approximate the interval formed between the 7th and 4th overtones which are a strong consonance. Dissonance is definitely a part of what makes music interesting. I wasn't trying to say that consonant intervals are the only reason for listening pleasure, just pointing out that there's some natural phenomena (harmonic series) that we're approximating or emulating with our music that can explain why we perceive music the way we do or why it sounds beautiful to us. I'm not familiar with gamelan but I found this interesting quote on the page regarding one of its tunings: > ..where instruments are played in pairs which are tuned slightly apart so as to produce interference beating. The beating is ideally at a consistent speed for all pairs of notes in all registers, producing stretched octaves as a result. This contributes to the very "agitated" and "shimmering" sound of gamelan ensembles. In the religious ceremonies that contain gamelan, these interference beats are meant to give the listener a feeling of a god's presence or a stepping stone to a meditative state. So in a way, even though the tuning system goes 'outside' the harmonic series, it doesn't completely ignore it but rather 'stretches' some of its intervals, which is what gives the music its otherworldly or mystical feeling.

soundwave106 8y ago

"Consonant" and "dissonant" are words that are indeed a bit too specific to the European music pedagogy as a whole. But I would argue that the "whole integer ratio" principle does actually extend a fair bit beyond Western classical. The lowest whole integer frequency ratios -- using Pythagorean terms and the ratios, octaves (2:1) and perfect fifths (3:2) -- seem to be present in the music systems of many music cultures, at least the ones I'm aware of. Perfect fourths (4:3) are also decently common in many music scales, although not quite as common as the other ratios. Beyond that, there is much variety and I'm not sure I can conclude anything (especially since my knowledge of scales and modes outside Western music is fairly limited). It just seems like most music systems in the world are aware of these core ratios at least. One other curiosity: I would say a huge percentage of music scales throughout the world tend to feature either seven or five notes (five notes actually is probably the more common one, if I had to take a guess). Unlike harmony, I'm honestly not sure why this is the case. Even gamelan scales are seven notes.

crazynick4 8y ago
Scales in Indian music are also built around integer ratios.