5 ms·

The phrase "legalises gay sex" is surreal and otherworldly to me. We recent fought for marriage in Australia. Shocking to think they were and are still so backw

The phrase "legalises gay sex" is surreal and otherworldly to me. We recent fought for marriage in Australia. Shocking to think they were and are still so backwards as to make that headline possible.

Numberwang 8y ago
I've seen your politicians. There is plenty of backwards to go around.
- thomasfedb 8y ago
  And we know it, we're not satisfied by any means.
peterlk 8y ago
Well, historically, India was comfortable with and accepting of people of all sexualities. The laws that are being overturned were put on the books by the British. So, the backwardness depends on the time scale
- sandworm101 8y ago
  In parts of india. It is a big place with a long history. There have been times and places in india where lgbt were persecuted long before colonial rule.
yaseer 8y ago
In Tasmania, gay male sexual conduct was illegal until 1997.
- thomasfedb 8y ago
  But I was 3 years old then, it's not something I can imagine living with.
  - swizzbeats 8y ago
    fag
arihant 8y ago
It’s a colonial era law that made LGBT “unnatural” in the country of Kamasutra. One of the many gifts the British left behind. Great we finally overcame it. Although we should have fixed it sooner.
rjay925 8y ago
The phrase is worded such because it was illegal. You do know that sex without marriage is possible, right? How is it that if you are so advanced, that you had to fight for marriage "recently"?, mate!
bloak 8y ago
I've heard that there are a number of US states in which some fairly common sex acts are officially illegal. The difference, of course, is that there is little chance of anyone being prosecuted for those offences in the US, while, if I've understood correctly, the Indian section 377 law was being used in practice.
- 5555624 8y ago
  Virginia § 18.2-345 was only repealed 5 years ago. Oral sex, sex in a car, and cohabitation of unmarried couples were all illegal. It was not necessarily enforced; but, the laws were still on the books.
- walrus01 8y ago
  It's still illegal to own more than six dildos in Texas.
  - GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 8y ago
    Not true since 2004 anymore. And apparently was only against promoting dildos. Source: https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/feb/09/alcee-hastings/florida-democrat-texas-law-says-women-dildos/ https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/feb/09/al...
    - walrus01 8y ago
      Well that's reassuring! I was wrong. But 2004 is rather recent.
- davchana 8y ago
  Yes, the law said anything other that the nature; which often was referenced as blowjob, anal, 69 etc.
voltooid 8y ago
There is more history to this. The introduction of the law relating to making gay sex illegal "... dating back to 1861, (that was) introduced during the British rule of India (modelled on the Buggery Act of 1533) criminalised sexual activities "against the order of nature", including homosexual activities" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377_of_the_Indian_Penal_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377_of_the_Indian_Pena... It is the truth for a lot of countries that were under colonial rule. Colonial powers left their mark behind in so many unfortunate ways that are just too complex for countries to deal with even today. It is simple and lazy to label something "backward".
- lucozade 8y ago
  > It is simple and lazy to label something "backward". Couldn't agree more. Having said that, I'm not sure the "blame the colonials" is vastly better. For at least 2 reasons: 1) One of the laws the Penal Code replaced required death by stoning as a punishment (unless you were a slave in which case you were just flogged). As poor as the law was, it wasn't really replacing an enlightened legal framework. 2) Post-colonial India didn't exactly rush to replace the law. The first attempt wasn't until 2009, and that was overturned. The simple truth is that, even supposedly liberal, countries have made these changes disappointingly recently. Personally, I'm glad this is happening but blaming others for the slow progress is somewhat disingenuous.
  - voltooid 8y ago
    You make a good point. It is simplistic and lazy to blame the colonials for all the ills of a society too. But the slow progress in fixing something like this is not so much because of a backwards attitude. Nation building takes time. Especially when things around the world are changing fast. There is a long long way to go. And it is definitely going to take a very long time getting there. Especially because there are way too many issues that need the attention of an already strained legal system.
- sgift 8y ago
  > Colonial powers left their mark behind in so many unfortunate ways that are just too complex for countries to deal with even today. What does that even mean? They are free countries. No one forced India to hold onto that law. No one forces other countries to hold onto colonial era laws. If they don't change it that's their choice, their decision and their problem in the end. Not that of some long gone boogeyman.
krylon 8y ago
In Germany, the infamous §175a StGB that made gay sex illegal was only finally removed in 1994. I think it was practically ignored for some time before that, but that was only 24 years ago. And yes, it feels just as unreal to me.
- simias 8y ago
  I thought we had a similar law in France until the 1980's but apparently I was at least partly mistaken: >Although same-sex sexual activity was a capital crime that often resulted in the death penalty during the Ancien Régime, all sodomy laws were repealed in 1791 during the French Revolution. However, a lesser known indecent exposure law that often targeted homosexuals was introduced in 1960 before being repealed twenty years later. So vive la révolution I guess.
  - etiennemarcel 8y ago
    In 81 homosexuality was taken off the mental illnesses list, that's probably what you're thinking of.
    - simias 8y ago
      Ah that's probably it, thank you.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  That's not entirely accurate, because the 175 was changed quite a lot over time. Initially it was jail-for-sex, but then in the late 60s it was changed such that basically the age of consent for gays was 21 (IIRC a notable exception was that if _both_ partners were below 18 then it wasn't punishable anyway -- so only if one was younger than 18 and the other 18-21 it was punishable, which is very weird indeed). Then there was another reform which made it so that >18 having gay sex with <18 was illegal. And then, finally, with the abolishment of 175 in 94 everyone got the same age of consent.
  - krylon 8y ago
abhi3 8y ago
Wait till you hear about these crimes: 1) Section 497 in The Indian Penal Code Adultery.—Whoever has sexual intercourse with a person who is and whom he knows or has reason to believe to be the wife of another man, without the consent or connivance of that man, such sexual intercourse not amounting to the offence of rape, is guilty of the offence of adultery, and shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to five years, or with fine, or with both. In such case the wife shall not be punishable as an abettor. 2) 498. Enticing or taking away or detaining with criminal intent a married woman.—Whoever takes or entices away any woman who is and whom he knows or has reason to believe to be the wife of any other man, from that man, or from any person having the care of her on behalf of that man, with intent that she may have illicit intercourse with any person, or conceals or detains with that intent any such woman, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both. 3) Having consensual sex with someone you promised to marry becomes rape retrospectively if you renege on the promise of marriage 4) And of course - Marital rape is legal. A husband (even an enstranged one) cannot be charged with raping his wife
- walrus01 8y ago
  Interestingly, consensual adultery is still an offense in the US Uniform Code of Military Justice.
  - gaius 8y ago
    The military has strong incentives to penalise not taking vows seriously, in general
yesenadam 8y ago
I just looked up when gay sex was legalized in Australia. It varies, but in Tasmania not until 1997. You were saying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Australia#Decriminalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Australia#Decri...

The phrase "legalises gay sex" is surreal and otherworldly to me. We recent fought for marriage in Australia. Shocking to think they were and are still so backwards as to make that headline possible.

Numberwang 8y ago

I've seen your politicians. There is plenty of backwards to go around.

thomasfedb 8y ago
And we know it, we're not satisfied by any means.

peterlk 8y ago

Well, historically, India was comfortable with and accepting of people of all sexualities. The laws that are being overturned were put on the books by the British. So, the backwardness depends on the time scale

sandworm101 8y ago
In parts of india. It is a big place with a long history. There have been times and places in india where lgbt were persecuted long before colonial rule.

yaseer 8y ago

In Tasmania, gay male sexual conduct was illegal until 1997.

thomasfedb 8y ago
But I was 3 years old then, it's not something I can imagine living with.
- swizzbeats 8y ago
  fag

arihant 8y ago

It’s a colonial era law that made LGBT “unnatural” in the country of Kamasutra. One of the many gifts the British left behind. Great we finally overcame it. Although we should have fixed it sooner.

rjay925 8y ago

The phrase is worded such because it was illegal. You do know that sex without marriage is possible, right? How is it that if you are so advanced, that you had to fight for marriage "recently"?, mate!

bloak 8y ago

I've heard that there are a number of US states in which some fairly common sex acts are officially illegal. The difference, of course, is that there is little chance of anyone being prosecuted for those offences in the US, while, if I've understood correctly, the Indian section 377 law was being used in practice.

5555624 8y ago
Virginia § 18.2-345 was only repealed 5 years ago. Oral sex, sex in a car, and cohabitation of unmarried couples were all illegal. It was not necessarily enforced; but, the laws were still on the books.
walrus01 8y ago
It's still illegal to own more than six dildos in Texas.
- GLjEI4YbnGD27LB 8y ago
  Not true since 2004 anymore. And apparently was only against promoting dildos. Source: https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/feb/09/alcee-hastings/florida-democrat-texas-law-says-women-dildos/ https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2015/feb/09/al...
  - walrus01 8y ago
    Well that's reassuring! I was wrong. But 2004 is rather recent.
davchana 8y ago
Yes, the law said anything other that the nature; which often was referenced as blowjob, anal, 69 etc.

voltooid 8y ago

There is more history to this. The introduction of the law relating to making gay sex illegal "... dating back to 1861, (that was) introduced during the British rule of India (modelled on the Buggery Act of 1533) criminalised sexual activities "against the order of nature", including homosexual activities" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377_of_the_Indian_Penal_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377_of_the_Indian_Pena... It is the truth for a lot of countries that were under colonial rule. Colonial powers left their mark behind in so many unfortunate ways that are just too complex for countries to deal with even today. It is simple and lazy to label something "backward".

lucozade 8y ago
> It is simple and lazy to label something "backward". Couldn't agree more. Having said that, I'm not sure the "blame the colonials" is vastly better. For at least 2 reasons: 1) One of the laws the Penal Code replaced required death by stoning as a punishment (unless you were a slave in which case you were just flogged). As poor as the law was, it wasn't really replacing an enlightened legal framework. 2) Post-colonial India didn't exactly rush to replace the law. The first attempt wasn't until 2009, and that was overturned. The simple truth is that, even supposedly liberal, countries have made these changes disappointingly recently. Personally, I'm glad this is happening but blaming others for the slow progress is somewhat disingenuous.
- voltooid 8y ago
  You make a good point. It is simplistic and lazy to blame the colonials for all the ills of a society too. But the slow progress in fixing something like this is not so much because of a backwards attitude. Nation building takes time. Especially when things around the world are changing fast. There is a long long way to go. And it is definitely going to take a very long time getting there. Especially because there are way too many issues that need the attention of an already strained legal system.
sgift 8y ago
> Colonial powers left their mark behind in so many unfortunate ways that are just too complex for countries to deal with even today. What does that even mean? They are free countries. No one forced India to hold onto that law. No one forces other countries to hold onto colonial era laws. If they don't change it that's their choice, their decision and their problem in the end. Not that of some long gone boogeyman.

krylon 8y ago

In Germany, the infamous §175a StGB that made gay sex illegal was only finally removed in 1994. I think it was practically ignored for some time before that, but that was only 24 years ago. And yes, it feels just as unreal to me.

simias 8y ago
I thought we had a similar law in France until the 1980's but apparently I was at least partly mistaken: >Although same-sex sexual activity was a capital crime that often resulted in the death penalty during the Ancien Régime, all sodomy laws were repealed in 1791 during the French Revolution. However, a lesser known indecent exposure law that often targeted homosexuals was introduced in 1960 before being repealed twenty years later. So vive la révolution I guess.
- etiennemarcel 8y ago
  In 81 homosexuality was taken off the mental illnesses list, that's probably what you're thinking of.
  - simias 8y ago
    Ah that's probably it, thank you.
blattimwind 8y ago
That's not entirely accurate, because the 175 was changed quite a lot over time. Initially it was jail-for-sex, but then in the late 60s it was changed such that basically the age of consent for gays was 21 (IIRC a notable exception was that if _both_ partners were below 18 then it wasn't punishable anyway -- so only if one was younger than 18 and the other 18-21 it was punishable, which is very weird indeed). Then there was another reform which made it so that >18 having gay sex with <18 was illegal. And then, finally, with the abolishment of 175 in 94 everyone got the same age of consent.
- krylon 8y ago

abhi3 8y ago

Wait till you hear about these crimes: 1) Section 497 in The Indian Penal Code Adultery.—Whoever has sexual intercourse with a person who is and whom he knows or has reason to believe to be the wife of another man, without the consent or connivance of that man, such sexual intercourse not amounting to the offence of rape, is guilty of the offence of adultery, and shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to five years, or with fine, or with both. In such case the wife shall not be punishable as an abettor. 2) 498. Enticing or taking away or detaining with criminal intent a married woman.—Whoever takes or entices away any woman who is and whom he knows or has reason to believe to be the wife of any other man, from that man, or from any person having the care of her on behalf of that man, with intent that she may have illicit intercourse with any person, or conceals or detains with that intent any such woman, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both. 3) Having consensual sex with someone you promised to marry becomes rape retrospectively if you renege on the promise of marriage 4) And of course - Marital rape is legal. A husband (even an enstranged one) cannot be charged with raping his wife

walrus01 8y ago
Interestingly, consensual adultery is still an offense in the US Uniform Code of Military Justice.
- gaius 8y ago
  The military has strong incentives to penalise not taking vows seriously, in general

yesenadam 8y ago

I just looked up when gay sex was legalized in Australia. It varies, but in Tasmania not until 1997. You were saying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Australia#Decriminalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Australia#Decri...