8 ms·

I know this is a bit cheeky, but HN sometimes has this comically simplistic view of other professions. It's as bad as the older C_Os who refer to all of dev and

I know this is a bit cheeky, but HN sometimes has this comically simplistic view of other professions. It's as bad as the older C_Os who refer to all of dev and IT as "computer people." As someone who is both a developer and a marketer I can tell you both fields have depth and value, and neither is easy to do well. Success often hinges on making something people want. Marketing done well is hugely helpful in determining both what people want and whether they perceive a product as a solution to their problems, and it can help guide product development with marketing analytics and other user data. I don't think I'd ever have been successful without a marketing background. To take it back to the original point, I will never move to AMP. I spend a lot of time speeding up my pages through simplification, caching, and any other trick that makes sense (deferment, lazy loading, minification, combining, etc.) But there are a lot of reasons to not want your link to start with amp.google.com when someone shares my page. * Any links to that URL rely on the good graces of the search engines to "count" for rankings and continue sending traffic. This is especially worrying if I decide to change standards. Will my rankings tank? Will the crawlers get totally confused and think I have a bunch of 404s? Both have been reported. These are not risks I'm willing to take with my sites that took so much work to build and promote. * When someone shares my page I want my URL to be clear - not some google.com URL. That's both confusing for the user and bad for building a brand. Even if it was a cname to my own subdomain I'd feel better, e.g. amp.mysite.com * Aside from the reason above, the lock-in is philosophically problematic. I intentionally use cross-platform apps on my phone because I don't want to be locked into an ecosystem. I don't foresee switching to Apple, but I didn't foresee switching to Android either. The point is that I could. This freedom is important to me. * I don't trust that Google is committed to me and my content. Just look at the YouTubers getting screwed over by Google's lazy copyright policy. What makes you think they're going to suddenly staff up and/or care more on web content? Anyway, as a writer, marketer, business owner, and web developer: fuck AMP.

nojvek 8y ago
> I don't trust that Google is committed to me and my content. This * million. The only thing I can reliably trust google is that when I type a search query, results will be meaningful. Regarding them keeping my data secure, not selling out to NSA, dropping support for things on a whim, kicking users out of their platform, I can’t really trust them. Google or anyone else. It’s just not their core business. They don’t really make much money from AMP. It feels like some VP’s pet project to get a big fat stock bonus. If you run a serious business. Stay the hell away from AMP.
- endgame 8y ago
  > This * million. The only thing I can reliably trust google is that when I type a search query, results will be meaningful. Even that is pretty dicey these days. Search for `keyword1 keyword2 obscure_but_important_keyword3` and `obscure_but_important_keyword3` will just get dropped from your query.
  - JimDabell 8y ago
    You can work around this by putting the dropped keyword into double quotes.
    - reitanqild 8y ago
      > You can work around this by putting the dropped keyword into double quotes. Often. It seems sometimes I get selected for an A/B test where they just ignore parts of my query even if I use doublequotes and verbatim option. Also this becoming standard means Google have taken a(nother) step backwards since 2009. Which might be a good thing in the long run. It means competition has even better chances. :-)
      - Outpox 8y ago
        DuckDuckGo has improved a lot for me the past year. I used to retry my query on Google when the results were not enough but I don't need to as often now.
        majewsky 8y ago
        Same for me. I've had DDG as the default search engine for a while now. Initially mostly for the instant results and bang shortcuts, but these days I find myself using !g very very rarely.
        TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        Same here as well. And I've been finding DDG to even given better results increasingly often, at least on the sample of searches that I've used multiple engines for. The one thing I really miss is insta-results for things like 'population of USA'. On the other hand, I think Google was going a bit too far with that and started giving insta-results that at times were subjective, or even simply wrong.
throwaway0255 8y ago
What value do marketers add to people’s lives? Can you give me an example? Follow-up question: Do you think the impact of marketers on people’s lives globally is net positive, or net negative?
- tobltobs 8y ago
  They enable you to sell the stuff you produce.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    How, though? Do you need them to just announce to the world that your product exists and solves a particular set of problems? Or do you need them to break through the noise caused by all the other marketers? ;). It's a self-sustaining industry. If you squint, it's basically rent-seeking.
    - george_morgan 8y ago
      Everyone hates advertising, until they lose their dog.
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
        Information about lost pets or belongings has nothing to do with marketing, and is usually published using in different sections of any communications medium than ads are.
    - tobltobs 8y ago
      Don't know how you would avoid this. Maybe with a kind of five-year plans for the national economy [1]. But this concept wasn't really successful. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_for_the_national_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_for_the_nation...
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> I know this is a bit cheeky, but HN sometimes has this comically simplistic view of other professions. It's as bad as the older C_Os who refer to all of dev and IT as "computer people." As someone who is both a developer and a marketer I can tell you both fields have depth and value, and neither is easy to do well. I don't think this is the real root issue you're thinking of. I don't believe HN has a simplistic view of marketers (to contrast, I'd say it seems to have a simplistic view of management). Many people here, myself included, would never deny that the job of marketer is difficult, challenging, and has a lot of depth. The issue we have is with the job itself. > Success often hinges on making something people want. Marketing done well is hugely helpful in determining both what people want and whether they perceive a product as a solution to their problems, and it can help guide product development with marketing analytics and other user data. I don't think I'd ever have been successful without a marketing background. This is perfect. This is exactly what marketing should be! Problem is, it's rarely it. The marketing as we usually encounter it, on the receiving end, isn't about "making something people want". It's about "making people want something". This simple transposition of words is the point at which marketing turns from objectively valuable into malicious and exploitative, and ultimately the source of hate against the whole field. You wrote that marketing done well "is hugely helpful in determining both what people want and whether they perceive a product as a solution to their problems, and it can help guide product development with marketing analytics and other user data". Yeah, sure. Except it's motte-and-bailey again, because we all know that's not what's going on. The data isn't used to optimize the product to deliver better value, it's used to optimize the product to trick the buyer into purchase. And analytics aren't just guiding product development (in either direction), they're also resold on the side, so that someone else can better trick the buyer into purchasing something else they don't need. The social contract between the individual and the firm is: the individual gives the firm money, in exchange for the firm delivering value. Marketing, as implemented in practice, is the art of maximizing the money received while minimizing the value given back (because value costs money to make). Hence the hate.
- manigandham 8y ago
  Desire is not a bad thing, and the reason why someone wants something doesn't matter after the point at which they want it. I'd much rather people have agency over their decisions than complain about an entire business concept. Also products are definitely getting better all the time. Feedback is a part of marketing and personalization to predict consumer needs is the next wave. Tricking users is not a viable business model for any legitimate company.

nojvek 8y ago

> I don't trust that Google is committed to me and my content. This * million. The only thing I can reliably trust google is that when I type a search query, results will be meaningful. Regarding them keeping my data secure, not selling out to NSA, dropping support for things on a whim, kicking users out of their platform, I can’t really trust them. Google or anyone else. It’s just not their core business. They don’t really make much money from AMP. It feels like some VP’s pet project to get a big fat stock bonus. If you run a serious business. Stay the hell away from AMP.

endgame 8y ago
> This * million. The only thing I can reliably trust google is that when I type a search query, results will be meaningful. Even that is pretty dicey these days. Search for `keyword1 keyword2 obscure_but_important_keyword3` and `obscure_but_important_keyword3` will just get dropped from your query.
- JimDabell 8y ago
  You can work around this by putting the dropped keyword into double quotes.
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    > You can work around this by putting the dropped keyword into double quotes. Often. It seems sometimes I get selected for an A/B test where they just ignore parts of my query even if I use doublequotes and verbatim option. Also this becoming standard means Google have taken a(nother) step backwards since 2009. Which might be a good thing in the long run. It means competition has even better chances. :-)
    - Outpox 8y ago
      DuckDuckGo has improved a lot for me the past year. I used to retry my query on Google when the results were not enough but I don't need to as often now.
      - majewsky 8y ago
        Same for me. I've had DDG as the default search engine for a while now. Initially mostly for the instant results and bang shortcuts, but these days I find myself using !g very very rarely.
      - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        Same here as well. And I've been finding DDG to even given better results increasingly often, at least on the sample of searches that I've used multiple engines for. The one thing I really miss is insta-results for things like 'population of USA'. On the other hand, I think Google was going a bit too far with that and started giving insta-results that at times were subjective, or even simply wrong.

throwaway0255 8y ago

What value do marketers add to people’s lives? Can you give me an example? Follow-up question: Do you think the impact of marketers on people’s lives globally is net positive, or net negative?

tobltobs 8y ago
They enable you to sell the stuff you produce.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  How, though? Do you need them to just announce to the world that your product exists and solves a particular set of problems? Or do you need them to break through the noise caused by all the other marketers? ;). It's a self-sustaining industry. If you squint, it's basically rent-seeking.
  - george_morgan 8y ago
    Everyone hates advertising, until they lose their dog.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Information about lost pets or belongings has nothing to do with marketing, and is usually published using in different sections of any communications medium than ads are.
  - tobltobs 8y ago
    Don't know how you would avoid this. Maybe with a kind of five-year plans for the national economy [1]. But this concept wasn't really successful. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_for_the_national_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_for_the_nation...
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago

TeMPOraL 8y ago

> I know this is a bit cheeky, but HN sometimes has this comically simplistic view of other professions. It's as bad as the older C_Os who refer to all of dev and IT as "computer people." As someone who is both a developer and a marketer I can tell you both fields have depth and value, and neither is easy to do well. I don't think this is the real root issue you're thinking of. I don't believe HN has a simplistic view of marketers (to contrast, I'd say it seems to have a simplistic view of management). Many people here, myself included, would never deny that the job of marketer is difficult, challenging, and has a lot of depth. The issue we have is with the job itself. > Success often hinges on making something people want. Marketing done well is hugely helpful in determining both what people want and whether they perceive a product as a solution to their problems, and it can help guide product development with marketing analytics and other user data. I don't think I'd ever have been successful without a marketing background. This is perfect. This is exactly what marketing should be! Problem is, it's rarely it. The marketing as we usually encounter it, on the receiving end, isn't about "making something people want". It's about "making people want something". This simple transposition of words is the point at which marketing turns from objectively valuable into malicious and exploitative, and ultimately the source of hate against the whole field. You wrote that marketing done well "is hugely helpful in determining both what people want and whether they perceive a product as a solution to their problems, and it can help guide product development with marketing analytics and other user data". Yeah, sure. Except it's motte-and-bailey again, because we all know that's not what's going on. The data isn't used to optimize the product to deliver better value, it's used to optimize the product to trick the buyer into purchase. And analytics aren't just guiding product development (in either direction), they're also resold on the side, so that someone else can better trick the buyer into purchasing something else they don't need. The social contract between the individual and the firm is: the individual gives the firm money, in exchange for the firm delivering value. Marketing, as implemented in practice, is the art of maximizing the money received while minimizing the value given back (because value costs money to make). Hence the hate.

manigandham 8y ago
Desire is not a bad thing, and the reason why someone wants something doesn't matter after the point at which they want it. I'd much rather people have agency over their decisions than complain about an entire business concept. Also products are definitely getting better all the time. Feedback is a part of marketing and personalization to predict consumer needs is the next wave. Tricking users is not a viable business model for any legitimate company.