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It's not like the life of a medieval peasant was nice, friendly, and long. I don't doubt that we're better off now, but was the life of the average civilized pe

It's not like the life of a medieval peasant was nice, friendly, and long. I don't doubt that we're better off now, but was the life of the average civilized person prior to a couple hundred years ago better than that of the average hunter-gatherer? It seems like you still have all of the same downsides, plus more like worse diseases and having to work nearly every waking moment. If it takes thousands of years of worse conditions to get to a better lifestyle, is that progress?

marcus_holmes 8y ago
Progress isn't a smooth line, for civilisations, startups or individuals. In Europe, the Roman Empire invented a whole bunch of stuff that we're only reinvented recently (and some things, like concrete, that we still aren't as good at). The Dark Ages were not a progression from that. There were, however, more people living in medieval Europe than there were when Europe was populated by hunter-gatherers. So yes, I'd count that as progress. As for lifestyle, it's hard to say... the life of a medieval peasant in Europe wasn't that bad. They had a lot of security, a community around them to support them, rights that were guaranteed by that community. They worked hard, but at work that was meaningful to the community. Things might have been worse in the cities, but the vast majority of people in medieval Europe lived in rural farming villages. I wouldn't necessarily say that they had it worse than a hunter-gatherer. Or even than a modern tech worker...
- mikeash 8y ago
  You were just arguing that high rates of infant mortality made it crazy to think things were better. Now you're saying that the life of a medieval peasant, where infant mortality was 30-50%, wasn't any worse than the life of a modern tech worker?!
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    you're right, of course. I just always think the peasants get a bad rap as being oppressed and miserable.

marcus_holmes 8y ago

Progress isn't a smooth line, for civilisations, startups or individuals. In Europe, the Roman Empire invented a whole bunch of stuff that we're only reinvented recently (and some things, like concrete, that we still aren't as good at). The Dark Ages were not a progression from that. There were, however, more people living in medieval Europe than there were when Europe was populated by hunter-gatherers. So yes, I'd count that as progress. As for lifestyle, it's hard to say... the life of a medieval peasant in Europe wasn't that bad. They had a lot of security, a community around them to support them, rights that were guaranteed by that community. They worked hard, but at work that was meaningful to the community. Things might have been worse in the cities, but the vast majority of people in medieval Europe lived in rural farming villages. I wouldn't necessarily say that they had it worse than a hunter-gatherer. Or even than a modern tech worker...

mikeash 8y ago
You were just arguing that high rates of infant mortality made it crazy to think things were better. Now you're saying that the life of a medieval peasant, where infant mortality was 30-50%, wasn't any worse than the life of a modern tech worker?!
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  you're right, of course. I just always think the peasants get a bad rap as being oppressed and miserable.