4 ms·

So, any speculation as to why jabber never replaced (or even really contended with) irc for developer chats?

by tvon 16y ago

dfox 16y ago
IRC client running in background is non-obtrusive, while Jabber is primarily intended for IM, which means frequent distractions. I know many developers who do not use any kind of IM, while they frequently chat on IRC.
- tvon 16y ago
  There is nothing about Jabber group chat that requires any frequent distractions, and group chat Jabber apps I have used seem to behave somewhat identically to irc clients (granted, this was ~4 years ago).
  - HerraBRE 16y ago
    Yes, but the Jabber group chat implementation is actually half-assed at the protocol level. IRC actually does a much better job and has much better features for managing large group conversations.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
Macha 16y ago
Along with dfox's reasons, IRC is also mainly intended for group conversations, while Jabber seems to mostly concern itself with one on one conversations. While both can do the other's task, it's not as pleasant an experience. The issue of critical mass also plays a part. IRC has been around longer, so developers are used to going to IRC rooms for chats. When they start their own projects, they use IRC because it's what they are familiar with. Then there is the fact that in the IRC chat, there are usually devs and users in the one room, and if someone asks a technical question, it's quite likely that there is a user in there who can answer the question, saving the dev work. Finally, there is another advantage of IRC: It doesn't need registration. Anyone can hop on, without going through an account creation process.
zokier 16y ago
Critical mass (or the lack of it) would be my guess. Social tools are not very useful if you are using it alone. And switching IM requires quite a lot of momentum imho. And there are some technical stuff too. Jabber is much heavier and noisier protocol. And afaik there isn't a Jabber client comparable to irssi yet.
- tvon 16y ago
  Good point, I think abstractbill nailed it with the XML, which would explain why there was never a good (or great) client. I remember having the client conversation when Jabber was growing, there were clients you could use but nothing that you really wanted to use.
- MattJ100 16y ago
  Except that irssi itself can speak XMPP with a plugin, you need to mentally decouple UI from protocol. That said, irssi-xmpp is certainly in need of some hacker love...
- jessor 16y ago
  BitlBee (http://www.bitlbee.org/ http://www.bitlbee.org/) is the answer. Use IRC, ICQ, MSN, XMPP and Twitter from within irssi.
abstractbill 16y ago
Jabber rode the wave of "everything must be xml". Try debugging anything that's based on irc - you can do it using telnet (and/or tcpdump, if you need to see full client-server interactions). Now try doing the same for Jabber. Typing xml snippets into telnet is not pleasant.
- MattJ100 16y ago
  Indeed, which is why it's typically not done, there are many better XMPP clients with debugging capabilities (including command-line ones) than telnet. Personally I much prefer debugging XMPP to debugging IRC protocol issues since it's always obvious what is going on from what goes over the wire, whereas in IRC you are frequently forced to look up random specs to figure out what some obscure numeric code means to a particular implementation of the protocol.
smackfu 16y ago
What was the reason for developers to switch over? "A better protocol" isn't a good one.
- carussell 16y ago
  That they've had extensibility in mind for forever and actually make improvements that allow for richer features beyond text-only chat? Don't try to market DCC to me.
Vulture 16y ago
In the glory days of IRC, everyone was using it. Now most social medias have replaced the need for it. I think that what really killed IRC was msn/icq, specialised and targeted chat instead of meeting random people (which is quite hard to do these days). IRC was the precursor to many specific stuff that later gave whole industries. Stuff like online dating didn't exist, interest groups like #linux or regional chatrooms like #Montreal. I think that jabber rose during the fall of IRC but they didn't manage to catch the fleeing users since their service is quite similar to what people were leaving. Since the web caught on online dating and such, IRC and jabber became less and less interesting for most of their former users.

So, any speculation as to why jabber never replaced (or even really contended with) irc for developer chats?

by tvon 16y ago

So, any speculation as to why jabber never replaced (or even really contended with) irc for developer chats?

dfox 16y ago

IRC client running in background is non-obtrusive, while Jabber is primarily intended for IM, which means frequent distractions. I know many developers who do not use any kind of IM, while they frequently chat on IRC.

tvon 16y ago
There is nothing about Jabber group chat that requires any frequent distractions, and group chat Jabber apps I have used seem to behave somewhat identically to irc clients (granted, this was ~4 years ago).
- HerraBRE 16y ago
  Yes, but the Jabber group chat implementation is actually half-assed at the protocol level. IRC actually does a much better job and has much better features for managing large group conversations.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

Macha 16y ago

Along with dfox's reasons, IRC is also mainly intended for group conversations, while Jabber seems to mostly concern itself with one on one conversations. While both can do the other's task, it's not as pleasant an experience. The issue of critical mass also plays a part. IRC has been around longer, so developers are used to going to IRC rooms for chats. When they start their own projects, they use IRC because it's what they are familiar with. Then there is the fact that in the IRC chat, there are usually devs and users in the one room, and if someone asks a technical question, it's quite likely that there is a user in there who can answer the question, saving the dev work. Finally, there is another advantage of IRC: It doesn't need registration. Anyone can hop on, without going through an account creation process.

zokier 16y ago

Critical mass (or the lack of it) would be my guess. Social tools are not very useful if you are using it alone. And switching IM requires quite a lot of momentum imho. And there are some technical stuff too. Jabber is much heavier and noisier protocol. And afaik there isn't a Jabber client comparable to irssi yet.

tvon 16y ago
Good point, I think abstractbill nailed it with the XML, which would explain why there was never a good (or great) client. I remember having the client conversation when Jabber was growing, there were clients you could use but nothing that you really wanted to use.
MattJ100 16y ago
Except that irssi itself can speak XMPP with a plugin, you need to mentally decouple UI from protocol. That said, irssi-xmpp is certainly in need of some hacker love...
jessor 16y ago
BitlBee (http://www.bitlbee.org/ http://www.bitlbee.org/) is the answer. Use IRC, ICQ, MSN, XMPP and Twitter from within irssi.

abstractbill 16y ago

Jabber rode the wave of "everything must be xml". Try debugging anything that's based on irc - you can do it using telnet (and/or tcpdump, if you need to see full client-server interactions). Now try doing the same for Jabber. Typing xml snippets into telnet is not pleasant.

MattJ100 16y ago
Indeed, which is why it's typically not done, there are many better XMPP clients with debugging capabilities (including command-line ones) than telnet. Personally I much prefer debugging XMPP to debugging IRC protocol issues since it's always obvious what is going on from what goes over the wire, whereas in IRC you are frequently forced to look up random specs to figure out what some obscure numeric code means to a particular implementation of the protocol.

smackfu 16y ago

What was the reason for developers to switch over? "A better protocol" isn't a good one.

carussell 16y ago
That they've had extensibility in mind for forever and actually make improvements that allow for richer features beyond text-only chat? Don't try to market DCC to me.

Vulture 16y ago

In the glory days of IRC, everyone was using it. Now most social medias have replaced the need for it. I think that what really killed IRC was msn/icq, specialised and targeted chat instead of meeting random people (which is quite hard to do these days). IRC was the precursor to many specific stuff that later gave whole industries. Stuff like online dating didn't exist, interest groups like #linux or regional chatrooms like #Montreal. I think that jabber rose during the fall of IRC but they didn't manage to catch the fleeing users since their service is quite similar to what people were leaving. Since the web caught on online dating and such, IRC and jabber became less and less interesting for most of their former users.