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As a pathologist working on a diagnostics project, I feel the tiniest bit bad for the Theranos team, only because I've seen first hand how the system ignores an

As a pathologist working on a diagnostics project, I feel the tiniest bit bad for the Theranos team, only because I've seen first hand how the system ignores anyone trying to start up in this space, and only really responds to money. The frustration of trying to work in this space could easily crank up the gain on a subset of any given person's tendencies in such a way as to create a fatal flaw. To some extent I'm grateful I got to watch them blow up. For shame, but there for the grace of God go I.

retsibsi 8y ago
That frustration is understandable if you have a great product (or at least a truly realistic big idea) and struggle to get traction with clients and investors. But if John Carreyrou's account is accurate, Theranos was in the opposite situation. Their 'idea' was just an unrealistic goal, and their product barely existed, even at the time they were rolling it out for use on actual patients. The one thing they were good at was persuading investors and clients to give them money.
- killjoywashere 8y ago
  Despite published papers to the contrary, a lot of people think I only have an unrealistic goal. And I'm here to tell you the product barely exists as a single prototype. Four years ago, the idea existed only in my mind. I started the work 7 years ago. I'm no Theranos apologist. Based on the conversation, I'm ordering the book to see if there's really any more detail. But keep an open mind. Assume people are no worse than you.
  - exikyut 8y ago
    I'm mildly curious what your device does. Based on reading random past comments, it sounds like it might have something to do with cancer and embryology...?
  - retsibsi 8y ago
    I don't think this is what you meant, but just in case: I certainly wasn't implying anything negative about you or your idea. If you think I'm being too harsh on Theranos, well, my mind was open too until I read the book. :) I don't think Theranos was intended as a scam from the start, and even when it was well into fraudulent territory, Holmes seems to have had some kind of genuine belief. (If not, I think she could have got out earlier with lots of money and less legal/reputational exposure.) But unless Carreyrou got almost everything wrong, there's no reasonable way to see the Theranos story as a tale of more-or-less well-intentioned people responding in forgivable ways to the pressures and challenges of a difficult industry, as I think you're suggesting might be the case. It was more like a death spiral of unrealistic promises bleeding into outright lies, a cult-like working environment, bullying and legal intimidation of critics, and eventually the deliberate (or, to be extremely charitable, wilfully ignorant) use of unreliable technology to conduct medical tests on, and give inaccurate results to, unsuspecting patients.
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    Don’t feel sorry for her. She basically made your job harder. Now everyone who invests in medical research will be less likely to believe in your prototype, regardless of its efficacy. Nothing she did was good for anyone.
  - Applejinx 8y ago
    There's your problem. I'm AWFUL :D I just make a serious effort every day to be less awful, and I've learned that when I try to trade my soul for huge success I get neither. But I know what it's like to go to the bad, and I know other people will do likewise. To me, the Theranos story feels very natural and plausible. And I hope I will always be prepared to choose poverty and failure rather than try to elbow my way into a place I'm not supposed to be. But there will always be someone who is prepared to lie, cheat or destroy just in order to beat me over here playing nice. Because they ARE no worse than me. But I don't have to give in to my worst nature…
godzillabrennus 8y ago
I’m not medical but have a great team of medical and AI folks I work with. We are also in the hematological analysis space with a startup. We are using robotics and artificial intelligence for our product and are in the medical validation phase of our solution, Folks we speak with have a lot of passion for this space. We believe the Theranos story actually highlighted the size of opportunity for improvements in this industry.

retsibsi 8y ago

That frustration is understandable if you have a great product (or at least a truly realistic big idea) and struggle to get traction with clients and investors. But if John Carreyrou's account is accurate, Theranos was in the opposite situation. Their 'idea' was just an unrealistic goal, and their product barely existed, even at the time they were rolling it out for use on actual patients. The one thing they were good at was persuading investors and clients to give them money.

killjoywashere 8y ago
Despite published papers to the contrary, a lot of people think I only have an unrealistic goal. And I'm here to tell you the product barely exists as a single prototype. Four years ago, the idea existed only in my mind. I started the work 7 years ago. I'm no Theranos apologist. Based on the conversation, I'm ordering the book to see if there's really any more detail. But keep an open mind. Assume people are no worse than you.
- exikyut 8y ago
  I'm mildly curious what your device does. Based on reading random past comments, it sounds like it might have something to do with cancer and embryology...?
- retsibsi 8y ago
  I don't think this is what you meant, but just in case: I certainly wasn't implying anything negative about you or your idea. If you think I'm being too harsh on Theranos, well, my mind was open too until I read the book. :) I don't think Theranos was intended as a scam from the start, and even when it was well into fraudulent territory, Holmes seems to have had some kind of genuine belief. (If not, I think she could have got out earlier with lots of money and less legal/reputational exposure.) But unless Carreyrou got almost everything wrong, there's no reasonable way to see the Theranos story as a tale of more-or-less well-intentioned people responding in forgivable ways to the pressures and challenges of a difficult industry, as I think you're suggesting might be the case. It was more like a death spiral of unrealistic promises bleeding into outright lies, a cult-like working environment, bullying and legal intimidation of critics, and eventually the deliberate (or, to be extremely charitable, wilfully ignorant) use of unreliable technology to conduct medical tests on, and give inaccurate results to, unsuspecting patients.
- chris_wot 8y ago
  Don’t feel sorry for her. She basically made your job harder. Now everyone who invests in medical research will be less likely to believe in your prototype, regardless of its efficacy. Nothing she did was good for anyone.
- Applejinx 8y ago
  There's your problem. I'm AWFUL :D I just make a serious effort every day to be less awful, and I've learned that when I try to trade my soul for huge success I get neither. But I know what it's like to go to the bad, and I know other people will do likewise. To me, the Theranos story feels very natural and plausible. And I hope I will always be prepared to choose poverty and failure rather than try to elbow my way into a place I'm not supposed to be. But there will always be someone who is prepared to lie, cheat or destroy just in order to beat me over here playing nice. Because they ARE no worse than me. But I don't have to give in to my worst nature…

godzillabrennus 8y ago

I’m not medical but have a great team of medical and AI folks I work with. We are also in the hematological analysis space with a startup. We are using robotics and artificial intelligence for our product and are in the medical validation phase of our solution, Folks we speak with have a lot of passion for this space. We believe the Theranos story actually highlighted the size of opportunity for improvements in this industry.