5 ms·

How does this relate in any way to cruel and unusual punishment?

by swebs 8y ago

ajross 8y ago
Why not just read the opinion? The case name is in the article, this is the very first link when you google it: http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2018/09/04/15-35845.pdf http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2018/09/04/15... I don't see it as so illogical. Judicial ideas of what constitutes "cruel" have for obvious reasons changed a lot over the centuries.
- swebs 8y ago
  Neat thanks. >We consider whether the eighth Ammendment's prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment bars a city from prosecuting people criminally for sleeping outside on public property when those people have no home or other shelter to go to. We conclude that it does. Still, it seems unrelated to cruel and unusual punishment. Putting people in jail is standard punishment for many crimes. It seems like the problem is in the prosecution itself before any sort of punishment is decided.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    They’re linked. Punishment which doesn’t fit the crime can be cruel and unusual even if it’s not for a crime where it does fit. For example, executing someone for petty theft would likely be held unconstitutional, even though it’s an allowable punishment for first degree murder.
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    It is rather unusual to put someone in jail because that person doesn’t have a home. And it’s cruel to make someone a criminal because they don’t have a home.
- jquery 8y ago
  I'm willing to bet these judges live in a nice gated community where the prospect of them and/or their children stepping in excrement or needles is zero. While in a utopia I'd agree, nobody should be arrested for just existing in the wrong place, "criminalizing" this behavior is the only way to force these people into a fully-functioning shelter where they cannot spread disease and filth to the rest of the population. For someone who's best option for sleep is a sidewalk, how is jail some sort of cruel and inhumane treatment?
  - ajross 8y ago
    > spread disease and filth to the rest of the population You want to quibble with constitutional minutiae, but drop that whopper without evidence? I mean, can you cite even one instance where someone got sick from interacting with someone who... slept outside?
    - jquery 8y ago
      Sleeping outside is almost never just sleeping outside. There’s open defecation, drug use, public urination, and needles left on the ground that usually accompany it. It’s a major public health hazard.
      - pmiller2 8y ago
        Yes, it is, and it should be dealt with as such. Criminalizing peoples’ existence is not dealing with the problem itself.
        jquery 8y ago
        Surely you don't suggest the police wait around for public defecation? Do you also suggest public intoxication should be legal, since that too is criminalizing (a certain type of) existence. All crimes are crimes of existence, it's a meaningless platitude to call it such. You merely sympathize and think street sleeping should be allowed, likely because you don't have to deal with the consequences of it happening on your front porch.
skywhopper 8y ago
Arresting them, charging them with a crime, and putting them in jail... for sleeping in the only place they can. That is cruel punishment because the "crime" is unavoidable.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  It also wouldn't have been a crime at one time. There used to be wilderness and people just existed. Now, all the land is owned by someone. If you aren't one of the haves, it gets increasingly challenging to find someplace where it is legal for you to even exist.
  - coryrc 8y ago
    BLM land is free for camping and in large quantities in the West.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      If you are indigent, there are no soup kitchens on BLM land. I spent nearly 6 years homeless. I spent a lot of time looking for free, legal camp grounds with access to internet and access to places to buy food, etc. I never found a single one. If you can afford to camp for fun as a middle class activity, that works. If you are indigent and trying to figure out how to earn an income, resolve your problems and get your life back, BLM land does you no good. I wished I could have made that work. But I had no car.
    - stephengillie 8y ago
      In WA State, most Federal Parks charge a $5 fee just to enter the park. Camping overnight is usually $11-15, with a 2-week limit, specifically to prevent people from living there. Even without that limit, that's still $330-450 a month in rent. That can rent a room in a college house (with 6 other people) in Seattle, and maybe a whole apartment in the rural areas where Federal Parks are located. (Reminder to self: Bureau of Land Management isn't Black Lives Matter)
- malvosenior 8y ago

How does this relate in any way to cruel and unusual punishment?

by swebs 8y ago

How does this relate in any way to cruel and unusual punishment?

Why not just read the opinion? The case name is in the article, this is the very first link when you google it: http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2018/09/04/15-35845.pdf http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2018/09/04/15... I don't see it as so illogical. Judicial ideas of what constitutes "cruel" have for obvious reasons changed a lot over the centuries.

swebs 8y ago
Neat thanks. >We consider whether the eighth Ammendment's prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment bars a city from prosecuting people criminally for sleeping outside on public property when those people have no home or other shelter to go to. We conclude that it does. Still, it seems unrelated to cruel and unusual punishment. Putting people in jail is standard punishment for many crimes. It seems like the problem is in the prosecution itself before any sort of punishment is decided.
- mikeash 8y ago
  They’re linked. Punishment which doesn’t fit the crime can be cruel and unusual even if it’s not for a crime where it does fit. For example, executing someone for petty theft would likely be held unconstitutional, even though it’s an allowable punishment for first degree murder.
- chris_wot 8y ago
  It is rather unusual to put someone in jail because that person doesn’t have a home. And it’s cruel to make someone a criminal because they don’t have a home.
jquery 8y ago
I'm willing to bet these judges live in a nice gated community where the prospect of them and/or their children stepping in excrement or needles is zero. While in a utopia I'd agree, nobody should be arrested for just existing in the wrong place, "criminalizing" this behavior is the only way to force these people into a fully-functioning shelter where they cannot spread disease and filth to the rest of the population. For someone who's best option for sleep is a sidewalk, how is jail some sort of cruel and inhumane treatment?
- ajross 8y ago
  > spread disease and filth to the rest of the population You want to quibble with constitutional minutiae, but drop that whopper without evidence? I mean, can you cite even one instance where someone got sick from interacting with someone who... slept outside?
  - jquery 8y ago
    Sleeping outside is almost never just sleeping outside. There’s open defecation, drug use, public urination, and needles left on the ground that usually accompany it. It’s a major public health hazard.
    - pmiller2 8y ago
      Yes, it is, and it should be dealt with as such. Criminalizing peoples’ existence is not dealing with the problem itself.
      - jquery 8y ago
        Surely you don't suggest the police wait around for public defecation? Do you also suggest public intoxication should be legal, since that too is criminalizing (a certain type of) existence. All crimes are crimes of existence, it's a meaningless platitude to call it such. You merely sympathize and think street sleeping should be allowed, likely because you don't have to deal with the consequences of it happening on your front porch.

skywhopper 8y ago

Arresting them, charging them with a crime, and putting them in jail... for sleeping in the only place they can. That is cruel punishment because the "crime" is unavoidable.

DoreenMichele 8y ago
It also wouldn't have been a crime at one time. There used to be wilderness and people just existed. Now, all the land is owned by someone. If you aren't one of the haves, it gets increasingly challenging to find someplace where it is legal for you to even exist.
- coryrc 8y ago
  BLM land is free for camping and in large quantities in the West.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    If you are indigent, there are no soup kitchens on BLM land. I spent nearly 6 years homeless. I spent a lot of time looking for free, legal camp grounds with access to internet and access to places to buy food, etc. I never found a single one. If you can afford to camp for fun as a middle class activity, that works. If you are indigent and trying to figure out how to earn an income, resolve your problems and get your life back, BLM land does you no good. I wished I could have made that work. But I had no car.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    In WA State, most Federal Parks charge a $5 fee just to enter the park. Camping overnight is usually $11-15, with a 2-week limit, specifically to prevent people from living there. Even without that limit, that's still $330-450 a month in rent. That can rent a room in a college house (with 6 other people) in Seattle, and maybe a whole apartment in the rural areas where Federal Parks are located. (Reminder to self: Bureau of Land Management isn't Black Lives Matter)
malvosenior 8y ago