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What's with all the comments supporting censorship all of sudden? Every social media site now has hordes of "people" defending censorship. Is it just more europ

by qubax 8y ago

What's with all the comments supporting censorship all of sudden? Every social media site now has hordes of "people" defending censorship. Is it just more european users on social media now? Or is it just government funded trolling? I just don't get it. Saudi arabia just declared online satire as a cybercrime punishable up to 5 years in prison. https://www.france24.com/en/20180904-saudi-arabia-declares-online-satire-punishable-offence https://www.france24.com/en/20180904-saudi-arabia-declares-o... We know how much china and russia loves censorship. And of course europe has a long tradition of censorship. As americans, we had long hoped that the world would join us and embrace freedom, but it looks more and more like we are forced to join them. I'd rather keep our freedom and separate the internet into "intranets". There is no european or saudi or chinese or russian websites or tech I need. Let the world have their backwards censorship and lets hold onto our freedom. If we have to cater to everyone's sensitivities, than that is a race to the lowest common denominator. That means we have no freedom at all.

petre 8y ago
I think the economic climate is worsening, there's much polarization which encourages censorship. Probably also gov't funded and big IP holder lobbying. The European officials act just like concerned grandparents, trying to censor selectively or regulate social media companies to self censor. Russia and China is no surprise.
blackbrokkoli 8y ago
For real? I was with you until you started trying to sell me the US a good example - if your freedom is so exceptional why... ...do you have an abyssimal rate of reintegration of ex-prisoners to literally every other Western country? ...do you have a president who actively recommends violence against journalists? ...is an absolute majority of your news stations owned by one mega-corp? But we don't even have to go there. It's even in your comment: You are in the most free country, so the best path is to cut the freedom to communicate globally? Of course, you're writing this from your US-made phone, no parts from China, no ressources from Africa/Middle East. It was delivered by foot I guess, since who needs cars (crappy German engineering)? It's also impressing how you write stuff in HackerNews without even needing THE INTERNET (filthy Brits)! I actually believe that a lot of problem would be long solved if people would spend less time convincing themself how superior their random place of birth is!
- qubax 8y ago
  You read a lot into my comment that simply wasn't there. By freedom I was talking about freedom of speech. > ...do you have an abyssimal rate of reintegration of ex-prisoners to literally every other Western country? What does this have to do with freedom of speech and censorship online? > ...do you have a president who actively recommends violence against journalists? Criticism isn't violence. Stop it. > ...is an absolute majority of your news stations owned by one mega-corp? I don't know? Should we have 1 state sponsored news company like the BBC or Xinhua that dominates media? Also, what does this have to do with freedom of speech? > You are in the most free country, so the best path is to cut the freedom to communicate globally? No. I said we should protect freedom of speech. In other words, we should communicate globally on our terms, not on censored european, chinese or saudi terms. > You are in the most free country, so the best path is to cut the freedom to communicate globally?... Did I say I was against trade? > needing THE INTERNET (filthy Brits)! The brits didn't invent the internet. You would think that someone on HN would know the difference between the internet and the web. And even the world wide web was partly invented by a brit. Feel free to look up who invented the "hypertext" in hypertext protocol. Can I ask if you are a journalist or work in the news/media industry? It's obvious you aren't from the tech world. The US has freedom of speech like no other in the world. If you disagree, then go look at the list of speech you could get arrested for in europe, russia, china, saudi arabia. And compare that to the US. Not sure why you had to bring in trade, prison, US nationalism and a poor understanding of the history of the internet into this. None of that has anything to do with free speech and censorship. I certainly don't think the US is the great at everything. But we certainly do free speech well.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    >The US has freedom of speech like no other in the world. The fundamental communication issue there is that the EU is not the US, not culturally or in history. Freedom, and as a consequence, Freedom of Speech, are defined different here. Or in some cases you have Freedom of Opinion not Freedom of Speech. People in Europe have simply agreed that in polite and free society, certain speech is not desirable and corrodes the fundamentals of our democratic process and values. People in the US think that all speed is allowed or else you corrode the fundamentals of their democratic process and values. Both opinions are valid. But people in the EU will think that the US isn't doing free speech well and people in the US will think the EU isn't doing free speech well. Ultimately, neither of those is the objectively right way to do freedom because there is none.
bahamut1928 8y ago
Please understand that for many of us in the EU, freedom of speech as understood and implemented by Americans is not something desirable. Based solely on my personal experience, most of the people are actually happy on how censorship is handled by our institutions. I've never felt restricted in expressing my opinion in whichever topic we are discussing, and I am actually happy that people preaching racist ideologies (that have cost us a lot in the past) find some obstacles in their way. I personally don't consider your freedom of speech as inherently superior or the obvious step into progress. As many things in life, it has its pros and cons. Would you deem as "progress" all those echo chambers on the internet where people find support for ideologies that have cost millions of lives in the past?
- anoifeh 8y ago
  >I've never felt restricted in expressing my opinion in whichever topic we are discussing Of course, if you belong to a mainstream ideology...
  - bahamut1928 8y ago
    In some cases I do, in others I don't. I've never encounter censorship in either of those. Besides, I had some pretty interesting discussions with people expressing ideas which did not agree with my thoughts. If, as you said, I would be on the "mainstream" side, they would have been censored. That did not happen.
- qubax 8y ago
  > people preaching racist ideologies (that have cost us a lot in the past) find some obstacles in their way. Racist ideologies isn't what cost europe deeply. It's europe's love of censorship. Hitler was able to do what he did because of germans love of censorship. Hitler never got majority vote on anything. But he was able to shutdown every opposition party in germany because of the german people's love of censorship. You could say censorship works well when people you like are in power. But what happens when people you don't like are in power? They can censor too. The difference between the US and Europe is that US loves freedom and europe doesn't. Probably has to do with millenia of living under kings. I don't know. And the reason why we have never experienced fascism or totalitarianism in the US is because we have fundamental free speech and free press rights. Europe doesn't. Unfortunately, instead of our good ideas rubbing off on europe, it seems like your bad habits are rubbing off on the US and we as a nation have to put a stop to it. > I personally don't consider your freedom of speech as inherently superior or the obvious step into progress. Isn't the fact that we didn't have a nazi germany, soviet union or a fascist italy proof enough? As long as everyone has the right to voice their opinions, there is no way nazis or communists or fascists can take over europe. Now if one side is able to silence everyone else, that's how you get nazi germany, soviet union and fascist italy. The antidote to hate isn't censorship, it's free speech. And free speech exists to protect you when bad people get into power.

by qubax 8y ago

petre 8y ago

I think the economic climate is worsening, there's much polarization which encourages censorship. Probably also gov't funded and big IP holder lobbying. The European officials act just like concerned grandparents, trying to censor selectively or regulate social media companies to self censor. Russia and China is no surprise.

blackbrokkoli 8y ago

For real? I was with you until you started trying to sell me the US a good example - if your freedom is so exceptional why... ...do you have an abyssimal rate of reintegration of ex-prisoners to literally every other Western country? ...do you have a president who actively recommends violence against journalists? ...is an absolute majority of your news stations owned by one mega-corp? But we don't even have to go there. It's even in your comment: You are in the most free country, so the best path is to cut the freedom to communicate globally? Of course, you're writing this from your US-made phone, no parts from China, no ressources from Africa/Middle East. It was delivered by foot I guess, since who needs cars (crappy German engineering)? It's also impressing how you write stuff in HackerNews without even needing THE INTERNET (filthy Brits)! I actually believe that a lot of problem would be long solved if people would spend less time convincing themself how superior their random place of birth is!

qubax 8y ago
You read a lot into my comment that simply wasn't there. By freedom I was talking about freedom of speech. > ...do you have an abyssimal rate of reintegration of ex-prisoners to literally every other Western country? What does this have to do with freedom of speech and censorship online? > ...do you have a president who actively recommends violence against journalists? Criticism isn't violence. Stop it. > ...is an absolute majority of your news stations owned by one mega-corp? I don't know? Should we have 1 state sponsored news company like the BBC or Xinhua that dominates media? Also, what does this have to do with freedom of speech? > You are in the most free country, so the best path is to cut the freedom to communicate globally? No. I said we should protect freedom of speech. In other words, we should communicate globally on our terms, not on censored european, chinese or saudi terms. > You are in the most free country, so the best path is to cut the freedom to communicate globally?... Did I say I was against trade? > needing THE INTERNET (filthy Brits)! The brits didn't invent the internet. You would think that someone on HN would know the difference between the internet and the web. And even the world wide web was partly invented by a brit. Feel free to look up who invented the "hypertext" in hypertext protocol. Can I ask if you are a journalist or work in the news/media industry? It's obvious you aren't from the tech world. The US has freedom of speech like no other in the world. If you disagree, then go look at the list of speech you could get arrested for in europe, russia, china, saudi arabia. And compare that to the US. Not sure why you had to bring in trade, prison, US nationalism and a poor understanding of the history of the internet into this. None of that has anything to do with free speech and censorship. I certainly don't think the US is the great at everything. But we certainly do free speech well.
- zaarn 8y ago
  >The US has freedom of speech like no other in the world. The fundamental communication issue there is that the EU is not the US, not culturally or in history. Freedom, and as a consequence, Freedom of Speech, are defined different here. Or in some cases you have Freedom of Opinion not Freedom of Speech. People in Europe have simply agreed that in polite and free society, certain speech is not desirable and corrodes the fundamentals of our democratic process and values. People in the US think that all speed is allowed or else you corrode the fundamentals of their democratic process and values. Both opinions are valid. But people in the EU will think that the US isn't doing free speech well and people in the US will think the EU isn't doing free speech well. Ultimately, neither of those is the objectively right way to do freedom because there is none.

bahamut1928 8y ago

Please understand that for many of us in the EU, freedom of speech as understood and implemented by Americans is not something desirable. Based solely on my personal experience, most of the people are actually happy on how censorship is handled by our institutions. I've never felt restricted in expressing my opinion in whichever topic we are discussing, and I am actually happy that people preaching racist ideologies (that have cost us a lot in the past) find some obstacles in their way. I personally don't consider your freedom of speech as inherently superior or the obvious step into progress. As many things in life, it has its pros and cons. Would you deem as "progress" all those echo chambers on the internet where people find support for ideologies that have cost millions of lives in the past?

anoifeh 8y ago
>I've never felt restricted in expressing my opinion in whichever topic we are discussing Of course, if you belong to a mainstream ideology...
- bahamut1928 8y ago
  In some cases I do, in others I don't. I've never encounter censorship in either of those. Besides, I had some pretty interesting discussions with people expressing ideas which did not agree with my thoughts. If, as you said, I would be on the "mainstream" side, they would have been censored. That did not happen.
qubax 8y ago
> people preaching racist ideologies (that have cost us a lot in the past) find some obstacles in their way. Racist ideologies isn't what cost europe deeply. It's europe's love of censorship. Hitler was able to do what he did because of germans love of censorship. Hitler never got majority vote on anything. But he was able to shutdown every opposition party in germany because of the german people's love of censorship. You could say censorship works well when people you like are in power. But what happens when people you don't like are in power? They can censor too. The difference between the US and Europe is that US loves freedom and europe doesn't. Probably has to do with millenia of living under kings. I don't know. And the reason why we have never experienced fascism or totalitarianism in the US is because we have fundamental free speech and free press rights. Europe doesn't. Unfortunately, instead of our good ideas rubbing off on europe, it seems like your bad habits are rubbing off on the US and we as a nation have to put a stop to it. > I personally don't consider your freedom of speech as inherently superior or the obvious step into progress. Isn't the fact that we didn't have a nazi germany, soviet union or a fascist italy proof enough? As long as everyone has the right to voice their opinions, there is no way nazis or communists or fascists can take over europe. Now if one side is able to silence everyone else, that's how you get nazi germany, soviet union and fascist italy. The antidote to hate isn't censorship, it's free speech. And free speech exists to protect you when bad people get into power.