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> That is not the same ballpark, league or even sport A lot of people will tell you that it actually is equivalent because attacking someone's gender or race i

> That is not the same ballpark, league or even sport A lot of people will tell you that it actually is equivalent because attacking someone's gender or race is always bad. That seems to be the fundamental disagreement in both sides of this argument.

pvg 8y ago
Thirty Helens will tell you that the quality of an argument is not a function of the number of people repeating it and the quality of this one, even the way you just described it above is plainly miserable. Not all bad things are equivalent. Calling someone a butthead is rude, calling someone a racial slur is also rude but also much worse. If your argument was that you find her tweets offensive and rude I'd try to convince you you might be misinterpreting them but at the end of the day, it's your feelings and your reaction and it doesn't require any great feats of empathy on my end to acknowledge some might find this stuff bothersome or to nod along at the suggestion that casual generalizations are fraught and the habit of them is to be avoided and is probably just not a great thing to begin with, in almost all contexts. But that isn't the argument. The argument is that this is the same and deserves identical opprobrium as, say, anti-semitism. You know, anti-semitism, the prejudice with a long history of actual oppression that was also a fundamental tenet of an ideology that perpetrated the industrial extermination of millions of people for their ethnicity, that still exists, the effects of which still reverberate through our culture and society, etc. Compared to some people being miffed at some tweets. To call an argument drawing a parallel between these merely dumb and ignorant is bend-over-backwards polite and charitable.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  > Calling someone a butthead is rude, calling someone a racial slur is also rude but also much worse. But we are talking about racial slurs and not just "rude" language. I don't agree that there's some hierarchy of racism where changing the race moves you up and down the offensive scale. All racism is equally bad, yes even that pointed toward white people.
  - pvg 8y ago
    I'd suggest you do a bit of reading on this because you keep repeating that very premise - it is simple, compelling, seemingly 'fair' and thoroughly wrong. I outlined it above but, obviously, much better and clearer things have been written about it. Racism is not a matter of calling people names.
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      We're obviously not going to agree on this. It's not just you or I though, this is a huge debate of our times. I truly believe the dictionary definition of racism will continue to be how most people view, define and react to statements like Jeong's. Racism = bad is really tough to argue against. We'll see if the left can prescriptively redefine what "racism" means to align with their politics. I have serious doubts that it will pick up steam though.
      - pvg 8y ago
        this is a huge debate of our times. It's not. This particular one is mostly manufactured twitter outrage. I truly believe the dictionary definition of racism You aren't using a 'dictionary definition of racism'. You're using one in which evoking literal Nazism is the same thing as being upset at someone's unfunny edgelordery. It's not a good look and you ought to reconsider.
        malvosenior 8y ago
        Telling people who are upset about racism that their outrage is manufactured, is "not a good look and you ought to reconsider" > You aren't using a 'dictionary definition of racism'. The dictionary definition or racism is this: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." So I guess I am using the dictionary definition.

pvg 8y ago

Thirty Helens will tell you that the quality of an argument is not a function of the number of people repeating it and the quality of this one, even the way you just described it above is plainly miserable. Not all bad things are equivalent. Calling someone a butthead is rude, calling someone a racial slur is also rude but also much worse. If your argument was that you find her tweets offensive and rude I'd try to convince you you might be misinterpreting them but at the end of the day, it's your feelings and your reaction and it doesn't require any great feats of empathy on my end to acknowledge some might find this stuff bothersome or to nod along at the suggestion that casual generalizations are fraught and the habit of them is to be avoided and is probably just not a great thing to begin with, in almost all contexts. But that isn't the argument. The argument is that this is the same and deserves identical opprobrium as, say, anti-semitism. You know, anti-semitism, the prejudice with a long history of actual oppression that was also a fundamental tenet of an ideology that perpetrated the industrial extermination of millions of people for their ethnicity, that still exists, the effects of which still reverberate through our culture and society, etc. Compared to some people being miffed at some tweets. To call an argument drawing a parallel between these merely dumb and ignorant is bend-over-backwards polite and charitable.

malvosenior 8y ago
> Calling someone a butthead is rude, calling someone a racial slur is also rude but also much worse. But we are talking about racial slurs and not just "rude" language. I don't agree that there's some hierarchy of racism where changing the race moves you up and down the offensive scale. All racism is equally bad, yes even that pointed toward white people.
- pvg 8y ago
  I'd suggest you do a bit of reading on this because you keep repeating that very premise - it is simple, compelling, seemingly 'fair' and thoroughly wrong. I outlined it above but, obviously, much better and clearer things have been written about it. Racism is not a matter of calling people names.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    We're obviously not going to agree on this. It's not just you or I though, this is a huge debate of our times. I truly believe the dictionary definition of racism will continue to be how most people view, define and react to statements like Jeong's. Racism = bad is really tough to argue against. We'll see if the left can prescriptively redefine what "racism" means to align with their politics. I have serious doubts that it will pick up steam though.
    - pvg 8y ago
      this is a huge debate of our times. It's not. This particular one is mostly manufactured twitter outrage. I truly believe the dictionary definition of racism You aren't using a 'dictionary definition of racism'. You're using one in which evoking literal Nazism is the same thing as being upset at someone's unfunny edgelordery. It's not a good look and you ought to reconsider.
      - malvosenior 8y ago
        Telling people who are upset about racism that their outrage is manufactured, is "not a good look and you ought to reconsider" > You aren't using a 'dictionary definition of racism'. The dictionary definition or racism is this: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." So I guess I am using the dictionary definition.