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> The ones that are able to pick up coding early just don't bother. They get hired through their family's network Heh. Indeed. Only an idiot would be born into

> The ones that are able to pick up coding early just don't bother. They get hired through their family's network Heh. Indeed. Only an idiot would be born into a family without a strong professional network ;-) Less sardonically, I did have this option after high school (although not through a family network). Fortunately, I took full advantage before finishing school and did a ton of freelancing plus an internship. I noticed, before it was too late, that the sort of software engineering work available without a degree was not going to keep me happy for 30+ years. This is the advice I give bright young students (as opposed to those who merely have family connections): make certain that you're not going to become unbelievably bored by your late 20s. If you can get a job doing web dev out of high school, you can land a job doing something super fun like self-driving after college and you can write your own job description with a phd. Your advice is good for kinda dumb kids from well-networked families, but IMO terrible advice for actually really intelligent kids. They will become super bored with the sort of software development that's available without spending a few years getting a good university-level grounding in mathematics and natural sciences. You can do that without going to college but it's still a four-year full time job... > I'd love to see data on Google employee's education levels over time. I think you'd be disappointed; Google hires a ton of Ph.Ds and recruits heavily from tippy-top universities.

Sileni 8y ago
I was born on the west side of Chicago, grew up in Englewood. I got my first job at 14 at the grocery store my mother worked at as a clerk. I worked there for two years before I convinced the owner to let me look at their inventory system. I didn't even get paid extra for that job, he led me to another job where I got to do some web design and got paid right around the minimum wage. And if I hadn't taken that job? No funds for college, no idea that I was actually smart enough to go, etc. You don't need a "strong professional network" to have your family help you find work, and I take offense to the implication that only affluent people have the means to support each other. There's no one stopping "bright young students" from getting their shoes dirty and finding someone who needs real work done. God knows there are enough kids already pushed away from programming by the elitist attitude you're displaying here. Most people can't afford to worry about what's "boring", they're focused on making sure they can survive. A degree is an expense that can be delayed until it's necessary.
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  I'm glad you got lucky. > You don't need a "strong professional network" to have your family help you find work No, but it certainly helps. Especially software development work. Regarding the rest, your original comment singles out "really intelligent kids". I was largely replying to that description. In general, advising people who fit that model to prematurely optimize so early in life is doing them a huge disservice. A "really intelligent kid" can get college mostly paid for through scholarships and have the world at their feet after graduating. The urge to take that dev job after high school is strong (been there), but it's generally a huge net loss for someone who is actually "really intelligent". > Most people can't afford to worry about what's "boring" I'm very concerned by your attitude that folks from modest means aren't capable of boredom, aren't capable of burnout. I'm also saddened by the fact that you seem to take offense toward encouraging "really intelligent kids" to actually use that raw intellect just because they happen to come from a modest background.
- kbutler 8y ago
  > Most people can't afford to worry about what's "boring", they're focused on making sure they can survive Isn't the point that kids (transitioning to adults) who can get the good jobs without college are going to be out of the "just trying to survive" category? They'll make enough money that they have time, and they are bright enough and motivated to learn enough that they are likely to get bored. A better response would be that autodidacts are more likely to keep learning on their own, and therefore have less need of a college degree to develop the skills for self-driving car work or whatever else.
  - Sileni 8y ago
    Yeah, more or less what I was getting at but I bit the throwaway bait. Live and learn. Thanks for clarifying.

Sileni 8y ago

I was born on the west side of Chicago, grew up in Englewood. I got my first job at 14 at the grocery store my mother worked at as a clerk. I worked there for two years before I convinced the owner to let me look at their inventory system. I didn't even get paid extra for that job, he led me to another job where I got to do some web design and got paid right around the minimum wage. And if I hadn't taken that job? No funds for college, no idea that I was actually smart enough to go, etc. You don't need a "strong professional network" to have your family help you find work, and I take offense to the implication that only affluent people have the means to support each other. There's no one stopping "bright young students" from getting their shoes dirty and finding someone who needs real work done. God knows there are enough kids already pushed away from programming by the elitist attitude you're displaying here. Most people can't afford to worry about what's "boring", they're focused on making sure they can survive. A degree is an expense that can be delayed until it's necessary.

throwawayjava 8y ago
I'm glad you got lucky. > You don't need a "strong professional network" to have your family help you find work No, but it certainly helps. Especially software development work. Regarding the rest, your original comment singles out "really intelligent kids". I was largely replying to that description. In general, advising people who fit that model to prematurely optimize so early in life is doing them a huge disservice. A "really intelligent kid" can get college mostly paid for through scholarships and have the world at their feet after graduating. The urge to take that dev job after high school is strong (been there), but it's generally a huge net loss for someone who is actually "really intelligent". > Most people can't afford to worry about what's "boring" I'm very concerned by your attitude that folks from modest means aren't capable of boredom, aren't capable of burnout. I'm also saddened by the fact that you seem to take offense toward encouraging "really intelligent kids" to actually use that raw intellect just because they happen to come from a modest background.
kbutler 8y ago
> Most people can't afford to worry about what's "boring", they're focused on making sure they can survive Isn't the point that kids (transitioning to adults) who can get the good jobs without college are going to be out of the "just trying to survive" category? They'll make enough money that they have time, and they are bright enough and motivated to learn enough that they are likely to get bored. A better response would be that autodidacts are more likely to keep learning on their own, and therefore have less need of a college degree to develop the skills for self-driving car work or whatever else.
- Sileni 8y ago
  Yeah, more or less what I was getting at but I bit the throwaway bait. Live and learn. Thanks for clarifying.