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Meh. MB are planning to start production sometime in 2H2019, and no real details about the capabilities of the car. Meanwhile Porsche's Taycan will cost more th

Meh. MB are planning to start production sometime in 2H2019, and no real details about the capabilities of the car. Meanwhile Porsche's Taycan will cost more than the Model S while having Model 3-like specs. The new Audi e-tron will also have 250 mile range and a 6 sec 0-60, both worse than the Tesla Model X. Meanwhile Tesla has another 16 months or so to keep selling the Model 3 in large quantities. Color me unimpressed by the german companies' efforts thus far. It is telling though that most of the companies are focusing on SUVs and not sedans. Tesla needs to up its game with the X and Y to address this.

izacus 8y ago
Where did you see large Tesla 3 quantities?
- Shebanator 8y ago
  They have already sold a lot of Model 3s, and they have 16 months to sell a lot more of them. Personally I don't really care all that much about when they hit 5k/week, 6k/week, or whatever. Even if they stayed at 4k/week that is 240K cars over the next 16 months, plus however many S/X/Y models they sell in that time. The counter argument is that the demand for the 3 will be exhausted at some point, which could well be true. But the availability of the cheaper short range Model 3 will spike demand before that happens. EDIT: fixed broken math
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Indeed, Tesla is supply constrained. The next three years of Fremont production are spoken for (reservations + demand not yet realized as a reservation). Gotta get those production rates up to pay off bonds and amortize capex though.
    - Shebanator 8y ago
      Yes, Tesla's profitability is an entirely different discussion, and IMHO one that really isn't all that relevant to how it will compete with MB, VW, etc. over the next few years.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        Profitability is relevant to how Tesla will do anything, including but not limited to competing with incumbent auto manufacturers, absent an infinite supply of undemanding capital.
      - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
        More importantly, the legacy automakers are loosing far more money on the sales of their EV than Tesla. They can't expect to margin of their gas-guzzlers to subsidies their losses on EV for long.
    - AshleyGrant 8y ago
      >The next three years of Fremont production are spoken for Are you sure? We did not have a reservation. We ordered a Model 3 LR AWD on July 25 and will be taking delivery by the end of September, per our delivery adviser.
      - jmpman 8y ago
        I expect the >$35k model demand is drying up fast. Can Tesla run their business on 400k 35k Model 3s?
        greglindahl 8y ago
        I'm really loving the simultaneous predictions that > $35k demand is drying up and complaints that the $35k car isn't shipping yet... because > $35k demand is too high.
      - Geee 8y ago
        They haven't started delivering outside US yet. Europe is planned mid 2019.
  - zacharytelschow 8y ago
    > the availability of the cheaper short range Model 3 will spike demand before that happens. So Q1 2019. And Telsa is always on time with self declared timelines, so you know those cars will be rolling off the line by then.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
      >And Telsa is always on time with self declared timelines, so you know those cars will be rolling off the line by then. Can you name one legacy automaker who reach their EV sales/production goals more accurately than Tesla over several years? All production targets set in 2015 by Musk have been achieved/exceed so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTbQFdyizGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTbQFdyizGQ
    - Shebanator 8y ago
      Q1 2019 is still at least six months before MB will have a viable competitor available to purchase. Probably more like 12 months before MB has it available in quantity. Too soon to say what availability will be for the Audi and Porsche competitors. But thanks for the snark.
    - greglindahl 8y ago
      Tesla has a history of shipping high-margin cars for as long as they can before shipping the base model. So no, no one should expect those cars to be rolling off the line by then.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ They sold more than 28,000 Model 3s in Q2. They're on track to deliver more than 50,000 in Q3. Will probably sell more 400,000 next year (assuming only a small improvement from the current run rate). They'll probably exceed 80% of EV market share in the US for years to come. Legacy automakers haven't got any source of battery (the Chinese will keep their production for the Chinese market, or only sell them for high margin). We've yet to know how the traditional automakers plan to make EVs in volume (intention don't count anymore).
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Panasonic, the company that actually runs Tesla's Gigafactory, has sufficient capacity to build out and manufacture car batteries for other carmakers should the demand ever arise. And today's article is basically the announcement that...demand has arisen. Expect to see an announcement from Panasonic or one of the other major battery suppliers in the next few days about breaking ground on a new factory.
    - moduspol 8y ago
      > And today's article is basically the announcement that...demand has arisen. It has--but it's not clear the whether the demand is for EVs or for Teslas.
zacharytelschow 8y ago
Tesla is (attempting to) scale up production to capture market share at a time when it's just not profitable to sell electric cars. If BMW says they can't yet be made at a profit, I believe them - not the guy who lives on subsidies. Once there is profit to be had and "game on," people are going to buy from existing brands with deep manufacturing expertise, not from a hype machine that might not be in business in 5 years.
- sergiosgc 8y ago
  I don't know where you get the idea that electric cars are not profitable. The higher end models are obviously profitable. As for mid-range, the Munro teardown shows the model 3 as not only profitable but highly profitable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAS-yjWj9DY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAS-yjWj9DY
- akmiller 8y ago
  "lives on subsidies" Tesla is well below that of many other car manufacturers on receiving government subsidies. BMW has received them as well!
debt 8y ago
"Meh." idk it's a very well-established 92-year-old luxury brand number 1 in their category, now investing billions in building an all-electric crossover. they already have a large established, loyal customer base. $12 billion seems scarily low; meaning they know they won't need much to be able to sell this car. this is a significant threat to Tesla; and the definitive moment we can say that Tesla has awoken the sleeping giants. although on the flip this will help the industry as a whole; it's more likely than not that Tesla will sell even more electric cars because of this.
- CalChris 8y ago
  The S is a pretty good car but I can still imagine Mercedes competing with it based on their luxury heritage. The 3 on the other hand is an astonishingly good car at a different price point and Mercedes will have great difficulty competing with advantage against it. Meh until proven otherwise.
- Tade0 8y ago
  > idk it's a very well-established 92-year-old luxury brand number 1 in their category On one hand I guess yeah, on the other - is it really anymore? I mean their latest endeavor, the X class, is nothing more than a fancier Renault Alaskan, and an expensive one at that. I haven't seen any high-risk effort from them in years. During the last twenty years Toyota and Honda invested heavily in hybrids and hydrogen-powered cars, Renault-Nissan in EVs, BMW in carbon-fiber bodies. What did Mercedes do aside from making good-looking, well put together cars for the affluent?
  - davidzweig 8y ago
    Made some trucks.
  - B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
    There were the autonomous F 015 videos, a sort of parlor room on wheels thing. (Don't know if there was actual hardware or just videos. To be fair, it will probably come to the depicted solution in due time.)
  - 8y ago
samstave 8y ago
I literally want a large Tesla Camper Van. Or at least one of these in Tesla: https://www.mercedes-benz-vans.ca/en/sprinter-4x4/cargo-van https://www.mercedes-benz-vans.ca/en/sprinter-4x4/cargo-van EDIT: To further this thought, what I would truly wish would happen would be that A Tesla-like "drivetrain platform" were available to boutique shops who could build whatever type of cab they wanted onto a standardized system. I worked with a guy in the 90s that took a Corvette Z base and put a 1938 ford on top of it. I'd like to have the same be done with Tesla drive train bases - where you can have an upper made to fit the lower. Clearly, there would have to be safety standards to be met, so don't waste time arguing that point...
- lev99 8y ago
  What would you do with one?
  - samstave 8y ago
    Be happy that i have a vehicle that meets any and all needs that i have and ill never have to buy gas. I hate gas companies with a passion. Having a cargo van based on tesla, id have all the utility i would ever want, and not worry about gas costs if i want to take a week long road trip, slowly crawl through traffic or haul heavy big things.
    - lev99 8y ago
      While that sounds really cool, it would also be a very expensive vehicle. Paying two strong men and renting a uhaul is usually how I handle moving big heavy things for the occasional time I need to.
    - oh_sigh 8y ago
      The problem is with ICE campers, you can throw some extra cans on the back and double or triple your range. Doing so with an EV is impossible. The best you could do is carry solar panels which may take multiple days to get your battery to a point where you can carry on.
- 8y ago
pkulak 8y ago
> Tesla needs to up its game with the X and Y to address this. Yup. Currently if you want a real SUV shape (not just a tall sedan lift-back) with normal doors, your options are the new German entries. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of people who value those qualities over 20-40 miles of highway range. The good news for Tesla is that the Audi is the only one scheduled to release before the Y, so they have time.
neuronic 8y ago
I want to add some information to your comment that might be interesting to consider, namely Volkswagen's approach (other than a few e-Golfs). Have a look: http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/the-electric-vehicle-module/ http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/the-electric-vehicle-module/
davedx 8y ago
I have 4 kids, so I'm consistently unimpressed with all these 5 seat "SUV's". So far the only full electric SUV with 7 seats I can buy in Europe comes from Tesla. It's annoying, because the X is still so expensive, and the Dutch gov't is increasing bijtelling next year which will add a huge extra cost for business leasing.
- fma 8y ago
  Chrysler Pacifica has a 7 seater mini van that gets 33 miles on a full charge, and gasoline engine after that. For my use case I'd never need to fill up, except for long road trips. Unfortunately I need a 8 seater.
- icc97 8y ago
  The regular Model S fits 7 with kids. It must be a fairly major cash saving having an electric car when dealing with so many kids. Colleagues of mine were paying more than 100 euros in fuel a week for large SUVs.
  - foolfoolz 8y ago
    hmm, aside from the BS that the model s fits 7 people.... this whole concept of saving money on gas and buying a luxury car instead makes no sense. 100eu/week in fuel = 5200/yr “normal” car = 20k tesla model s = 80k you could spend 100eu/week for 12 years and it would be cheaper to buy the fuel. “nice” car = 35k that’s gonna hit the break even in just 9 years. driving 100eu of fuel/week for 9 years is a pretty nuts amount of driving, still better to get the cheaper car
    - mark212 8y ago
      7 with kids if you get the jump seats installed. 2 + 3 + 2 Depreciation is the usually the largest factor in total cost of ownership. If you're not factoring that in, you're not doing it right.
      - rootusrootus 8y ago
Shebanator 8y ago
FYI, according to The Verge, the new MB Ev will have 200 mile range and 4.9 second 0-60. https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/4/17818836/mercedes-benz-eqc-suv-ev-specs-photos https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/4/17818836/mercedes-benz-eqc...
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Exactly. German car manufacturers are announcing to start shipping products from next year. They are not announcing at what price and volume they expect to be selling those. But you can safely assume this will be very high and very low for quite some time. Everybody seems to be going on about Teslas well documented struggle to reach 5K cars/week in production. My guess is that it will be quite a bit of time before the traditional manufacturers will be able to boast similar numbers. All indications are that German car manufacturers are taking the same path as Tesla has over the last ten years: start shipping in low volume at the very high end of the market and (re) learn how to build products in this market. My guess is that they are themselves expecting it to take quite a while to catch up; probably in the order of five to ten years. The currently announced and rumored models are stop gap solutions to not fall behind any further. They are behind in specs and pricing and they can't ship them in large enough volumes. But it is better than having nothing in the market. It's what is going to come after those that is going to make or break them. Look for the second or third generation models of these vehicles by 2023-2025. By then they should have sorted out logistics and battery production issues and figured out how to make better EVs for less money. Meanwhile, Model 3 sales alone are outpacing their high end conventional models in the same price class in the US. Considering that that is where car manufacturers make their money, that has got to be hurting financially. Likewise, Model S is selling pretty substantially in Europe, and out selling several of the BMW an Mercedes models in the same price class. In Germany! Model 3 has yet to start shipping here in serious volume. With Tesla steadily increasing production, improving efficiency in their production, opening new factories (and planning to build more), rolling out to more countries, and dropping prices over the next five years, that is going to be a problem for other manufacturers for a while.
- pintxo 8y ago
  > Likewise, Model S is selling pretty substantially in Europe, and out selling several of the BMW an Mercedes models in the same price class. In Germany! Model 3 has yet to start shipping here in serious volume. Where did you get that from? I could not readily find numbers for Europe. But for Germany this is certainly not the case. Looking at [1,2], Mercedes sells ~500 S-Class per month, where Tesla sells 50 Model S. Tesla Model S did outsell (in July): - MASERATI GHIBLI - BMW 8ER - CADILLAC CTS - JAGUAR XJ - ROLLS ROYCE PHANTOM - LEXUS LS - CADILLAC CT6 - MASERATI QUATTROPORTE - ROLLS ROYCE DAWN - ROLLS ROYCE WRAITH [1] https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/FZ/2018%20monatlich/FZ11/fz11_2018_07_xls.xls?__blob=publicationFile&v=4 https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah... [2] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSb3BXluJYs1uMLl_zrgoM3p7NRsKfLADqTpOkND-Nws8iO76jVHd-dYURlfhidhHeDt529bYrCBz6V/pubhtml https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSb3BXluJYs1...
anonymous5133 8y ago
They will improve in time. If anything, it shows that Tesla is going to have to play hard to make sure the competition doesn't eat their market share. I think Tesla has dropped the ball by not being able to make their cars fast enough. The bigger auto makers might have access to bigger credit lines or exciting plants which can be retooled quickly if they see their electric car selling fast.
- MrEfficiency 8y ago
  Nissan and GM already have vehicles. I believe Ford has recently changed their stance and are making their own. Tesla had outstanding marketing but failed in mass production. SpaceX claiming to put humans on mars in our lifetime, an active reddit marketing team, elon's twitter, and a worldwide desire to reduce gasoline usage- All fantastic marketing. Everyone is aware of the production issues, shoddy engineering, and people are getting wiser to Elon's outrageous claims. I dont know if there is a way to save Tesla. It already peaked in popularity.
myrandomcomment 8y ago
So here is the thing...the interior of the Tesla is not that of a car costing 100K. I expect the others you named will be. I drove a Tesla and it was cool, but I could not get past the cost vs. my previous MB or Porsche. I am hoping Porsche does an electric in the style of the Boxster, if so that is my next car. My wife is looking at the Audi or Jaguar electric to replace her Macan as the next car. I will say the current 2 cars will be the last gas powered I own.
MR4D 8y ago
It’s not about being first - it’s about being there for the long term. Much better for these companies to take their time, get it right, and work it into their current production and supply chain than mess it all up and incur crazy high costs. I love Tesla cars and have a lot of respect for Elon (minus a few dumb tweets), but to be honest, the viability of the firm after all the Germans come online is uncertain to say the least. For Tesla to compete - even with a superior product - against tried and true brands that have been around for a century is going to be tough. Heck, look at tech; even IBM is still around today!

izacus 8y ago

Where did you see large Tesla 3 quantities?

Shebanator 8y ago
They have already sold a lot of Model 3s, and they have 16 months to sell a lot more of them. Personally I don't really care all that much about when they hit 5k/week, 6k/week, or whatever. Even if they stayed at 4k/week that is 240K cars over the next 16 months, plus however many S/X/Y models they sell in that time. The counter argument is that the demand for the 3 will be exhausted at some point, which could well be true. But the availability of the cheaper short range Model 3 will spike demand before that happens. EDIT: fixed broken math
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Indeed, Tesla is supply constrained. The next three years of Fremont production are spoken for (reservations + demand not yet realized as a reservation). Gotta get those production rates up to pay off bonds and amortize capex though.
  - Shebanator 8y ago
    Yes, Tesla's profitability is an entirely different discussion, and IMHO one that really isn't all that relevant to how it will compete with MB, VW, etc. over the next few years.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      Profitability is relevant to how Tesla will do anything, including but not limited to competing with incumbent auto manufacturers, absent an infinite supply of undemanding capital.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
      More importantly, the legacy automakers are loosing far more money on the sales of their EV than Tesla. They can't expect to margin of their gas-guzzlers to subsidies their losses on EV for long.
  - AshleyGrant 8y ago
    >The next three years of Fremont production are spoken for Are you sure? We did not have a reservation. We ordered a Model 3 LR AWD on July 25 and will be taking delivery by the end of September, per our delivery adviser.
    - jmpman 8y ago
      I expect the >$35k model demand is drying up fast. Can Tesla run their business on 400k 35k Model 3s?
      - greglindahl 8y ago
        I'm really loving the simultaneous predictions that > $35k demand is drying up and complaints that the $35k car isn't shipping yet... because > $35k demand is too high.
    - Geee 8y ago
      They haven't started delivering outside US yet. Europe is planned mid 2019.
- zacharytelschow 8y ago
  > the availability of the cheaper short range Model 3 will spike demand before that happens. So Q1 2019. And Telsa is always on time with self declared timelines, so you know those cars will be rolling off the line by then.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    >And Telsa is always on time with self declared timelines, so you know those cars will be rolling off the line by then. Can you name one legacy automaker who reach their EV sales/production goals more accurately than Tesla over several years? All production targets set in 2015 by Musk have been achieved/exceed so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTbQFdyizGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTbQFdyizGQ
  - Shebanator 8y ago
    Q1 2019 is still at least six months before MB will have a viable competitor available to purchase. Probably more like 12 months before MB has it available in quantity. Too soon to say what availability will be for the Audi and Porsche competitors. But thanks for the snark.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    Tesla has a history of shipping high-margin cars for as long as they can before shipping the base model. So no, no one should expect those cars to be rolling off the line by then.
rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ They sold more than 28,000 Model 3s in Q2. They're on track to deliver more than 50,000 in Q3. Will probably sell more 400,000 next year (assuming only a small improvement from the current run rate). They'll probably exceed 80% of EV market share in the US for years to come. Legacy automakers haven't got any source of battery (the Chinese will keep their production for the Chinese market, or only sell them for high margin). We've yet to know how the traditional automakers plan to make EVs in volume (intention don't count anymore).
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Panasonic, the company that actually runs Tesla's Gigafactory, has sufficient capacity to build out and manufacture car batteries for other carmakers should the demand ever arise. And today's article is basically the announcement that...demand has arisen. Expect to see an announcement from Panasonic or one of the other major battery suppliers in the next few days about breaking ground on a new factory.
  - moduspol 8y ago
    > And today's article is basically the announcement that...demand has arisen. It has--but it's not clear the whether the demand is for EVs or for Teslas.

zacharytelschow 8y ago

Tesla is (attempting to) scale up production to capture market share at a time when it's just not profitable to sell electric cars. If BMW says they can't yet be made at a profit, I believe them - not the guy who lives on subsidies. Once there is profit to be had and "game on," people are going to buy from existing brands with deep manufacturing expertise, not from a hype machine that might not be in business in 5 years.

sergiosgc 8y ago
I don't know where you get the idea that electric cars are not profitable. The higher end models are obviously profitable. As for mid-range, the Munro teardown shows the model 3 as not only profitable but highly profitable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAS-yjWj9DY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAS-yjWj9DY
akmiller 8y ago
"lives on subsidies" Tesla is well below that of many other car manufacturers on receiving government subsidies. BMW has received them as well!

debt 8y ago

"Meh." idk it's a very well-established 92-year-old luxury brand number 1 in their category, now investing billions in building an all-electric crossover. they already have a large established, loyal customer base. $12 billion seems scarily low; meaning they know they won't need much to be able to sell this car. this is a significant threat to Tesla; and the definitive moment we can say that Tesla has awoken the sleeping giants. although on the flip this will help the industry as a whole; it's more likely than not that Tesla will sell even more electric cars because of this.

CalChris 8y ago
The S is a pretty good car but I can still imagine Mercedes competing with it based on their luxury heritage. The 3 on the other hand is an astonishingly good car at a different price point and Mercedes will have great difficulty competing with advantage against it. Meh until proven otherwise.
Tade0 8y ago
> idk it's a very well-established 92-year-old luxury brand number 1 in their category On one hand I guess yeah, on the other - is it really anymore? I mean their latest endeavor, the X class, is nothing more than a fancier Renault Alaskan, and an expensive one at that. I haven't seen any high-risk effort from them in years. During the last twenty years Toyota and Honda invested heavily in hybrids and hydrogen-powered cars, Renault-Nissan in EVs, BMW in carbon-fiber bodies. What did Mercedes do aside from making good-looking, well put together cars for the affluent?
- davidzweig 8y ago
  Made some trucks.
- B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
  There were the autonomous F 015 videos, a sort of parlor room on wheels thing. (Don't know if there was actual hardware or just videos. To be fair, it will probably come to the depicted solution in due time.)
- 8y ago

samstave 8y ago

I literally want a large Tesla Camper Van. Or at least one of these in Tesla: https://www.mercedes-benz-vans.ca/en/sprinter-4x4/cargo-van https://www.mercedes-benz-vans.ca/en/sprinter-4x4/cargo-van EDIT: To further this thought, what I would truly wish would happen would be that A Tesla-like "drivetrain platform" were available to boutique shops who could build whatever type of cab they wanted onto a standardized system. I worked with a guy in the 90s that took a Corvette Z base and put a 1938 ford on top of it. I'd like to have the same be done with Tesla drive train bases - where you can have an upper made to fit the lower. Clearly, there would have to be safety standards to be met, so don't waste time arguing that point...

lev99 8y ago
What would you do with one?
- samstave 8y ago
  Be happy that i have a vehicle that meets any and all needs that i have and ill never have to buy gas. I hate gas companies with a passion. Having a cargo van based on tesla, id have all the utility i would ever want, and not worry about gas costs if i want to take a week long road trip, slowly crawl through traffic or haul heavy big things.
  - lev99 8y ago
    While that sounds really cool, it would also be a very expensive vehicle. Paying two strong men and renting a uhaul is usually how I handle moving big heavy things for the occasional time I need to.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    The problem is with ICE campers, you can throw some extra cans on the back and double or triple your range. Doing so with an EV is impossible. The best you could do is carry solar panels which may take multiple days to get your battery to a point where you can carry on.
8y ago

pkulak 8y ago

> Tesla needs to up its game with the X and Y to address this. Yup. Currently if you want a real SUV shape (not just a tall sedan lift-back) with normal doors, your options are the new German entries. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of people who value those qualities over 20-40 miles of highway range. The good news for Tesla is that the Audi is the only one scheduled to release before the Y, so they have time.

neuronic 8y ago

I want to add some information to your comment that might be interesting to consider, namely Volkswagen's approach (other than a few e-Golfs). Have a look: http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/the-electric-vehicle-module/ http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/the-electric-vehicle-module/

davedx 8y ago

I have 4 kids, so I'm consistently unimpressed with all these 5 seat "SUV's". So far the only full electric SUV with 7 seats I can buy in Europe comes from Tesla. It's annoying, because the X is still so expensive, and the Dutch gov't is increasing bijtelling next year which will add a huge extra cost for business leasing.

fma 8y ago
Chrysler Pacifica has a 7 seater mini van that gets 33 miles on a full charge, and gasoline engine after that. For my use case I'd never need to fill up, except for long road trips. Unfortunately I need a 8 seater.
icc97 8y ago
The regular Model S fits 7 with kids. It must be a fairly major cash saving having an electric car when dealing with so many kids. Colleagues of mine were paying more than 100 euros in fuel a week for large SUVs.
- foolfoolz 8y ago
  hmm, aside from the BS that the model s fits 7 people.... this whole concept of saving money on gas and buying a luxury car instead makes no sense. 100eu/week in fuel = 5200/yr “normal” car = 20k tesla model s = 80k you could spend 100eu/week for 12 years and it would be cheaper to buy the fuel. “nice” car = 35k that’s gonna hit the break even in just 9 years. driving 100eu of fuel/week for 9 years is a pretty nuts amount of driving, still better to get the cheaper car
  - mark212 8y ago
    7 with kids if you get the jump seats installed. 2 + 3 + 2 Depreciation is the usually the largest factor in total cost of ownership. If you're not factoring that in, you're not doing it right.
    - rootusrootus 8y ago

Shebanator 8y ago

FYI, according to The Verge, the new MB Ev will have 200 mile range and 4.9 second 0-60. https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/4/17818836/mercedes-benz-eqc-suv-ev-specs-photos https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/4/17818836/mercedes-benz-eqc...

jillesvangurp 8y ago

Exactly. German car manufacturers are announcing to start shipping products from next year. They are not announcing at what price and volume they expect to be selling those. But you can safely assume this will be very high and very low for quite some time. Everybody seems to be going on about Teslas well documented struggle to reach 5K cars/week in production. My guess is that it will be quite a bit of time before the traditional manufacturers will be able to boast similar numbers. All indications are that German car manufacturers are taking the same path as Tesla has over the last ten years: start shipping in low volume at the very high end of the market and (re) learn how to build products in this market. My guess is that they are themselves expecting it to take quite a while to catch up; probably in the order of five to ten years. The currently announced and rumored models are stop gap solutions to not fall behind any further. They are behind in specs and pricing and they can't ship them in large enough volumes. But it is better than having nothing in the market. It's what is going to come after those that is going to make or break them. Look for the second or third generation models of these vehicles by 2023-2025. By then they should have sorted out logistics and battery production issues and figured out how to make better EVs for less money. Meanwhile, Model 3 sales alone are outpacing their high end conventional models in the same price class in the US. Considering that that is where car manufacturers make their money, that has got to be hurting financially. Likewise, Model S is selling pretty substantially in Europe, and out selling several of the BMW an Mercedes models in the same price class. In Germany! Model 3 has yet to start shipping here in serious volume. With Tesla steadily increasing production, improving efficiency in their production, opening new factories (and planning to build more), rolling out to more countries, and dropping prices over the next five years, that is going to be a problem for other manufacturers for a while.

pintxo 8y ago
> Likewise, Model S is selling pretty substantially in Europe, and out selling several of the BMW an Mercedes models in the same price class. In Germany! Model 3 has yet to start shipping here in serious volume. Where did you get that from? I could not readily find numbers for Europe. But for Germany this is certainly not the case. Looking at [1,2], Mercedes sells ~500 S-Class per month, where Tesla sells 50 Model S. Tesla Model S did outsell (in July): - MASERATI GHIBLI - BMW 8ER - CADILLAC CTS - JAGUAR XJ - ROLLS ROYCE PHANTOM - LEXUS LS - CADILLAC CT6 - MASERATI QUATTROPORTE - ROLLS ROYCE DAWN - ROLLS ROYCE WRAITH [1] https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/FZ/2018%20monatlich/FZ11/fz11_2018_07_xls.xls?__blob=publicationFile&v=4 https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publikationen/DE/Statistik/Fah... [2] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSb3BXluJYs1uMLl_zrgoM3p7NRsKfLADqTpOkND-Nws8iO76jVHd-dYURlfhidhHeDt529bYrCBz6V/pubhtml https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSb3BXluJYs1...

anonymous5133 8y ago

They will improve in time. If anything, it shows that Tesla is going to have to play hard to make sure the competition doesn't eat their market share. I think Tesla has dropped the ball by not being able to make their cars fast enough. The bigger auto makers might have access to bigger credit lines or exciting plants which can be retooled quickly if they see their electric car selling fast.

MrEfficiency 8y ago
Nissan and GM already have vehicles. I believe Ford has recently changed their stance and are making their own. Tesla had outstanding marketing but failed in mass production. SpaceX claiming to put humans on mars in our lifetime, an active reddit marketing team, elon's twitter, and a worldwide desire to reduce gasoline usage- All fantastic marketing. Everyone is aware of the production issues, shoddy engineering, and people are getting wiser to Elon's outrageous claims. I dont know if there is a way to save Tesla. It already peaked in popularity.

myrandomcomment 8y ago

So here is the thing...the interior of the Tesla is not that of a car costing 100K. I expect the others you named will be. I drove a Tesla and it was cool, but I could not get past the cost vs. my previous MB or Porsche. I am hoping Porsche does an electric in the style of the Boxster, if so that is my next car. My wife is looking at the Audi or Jaguar electric to replace her Macan as the next car. I will say the current 2 cars will be the last gas powered I own.

MR4D 8y ago

It’s not about being first - it’s about being there for the long term. Much better for these companies to take their time, get it right, and work it into their current production and supply chain than mess it all up and incur crazy high costs. I love Tesla cars and have a lot of respect for Elon (minus a few dumb tweets), but to be honest, the viability of the firm after all the Germans come online is uncertain to say the least. For Tesla to compete - even with a superior product - against tried and true brands that have been around for a century is going to be tough. Heck, look at tech; even IBM is still around today!