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Transportation cyclist here. This is a great article, but it only indirectly touches upon one of the most effective tools a cyclist could have: an air horn. I

Transportation cyclist here. This is a great article, but it only indirectly touches upon one of the most effective tools a cyclist could have: an air horn. I have an Air Zound air horn and I feel much less safe riding without it. I'll often give a few toots before approaching an intersection to increase the chance that I am seen. And it has probably saved me from some major crashes when I lay down the horn on someone. Many drivers seem to automatically brake when I honk. The horn is also great for giving bad drivers feedback. Most people who drive poorly around cyclists seem oblivious. Some drivers unfortunately see horn use as hostility. I have dealt with a few road raging drivers who were very angry that I honked at them. I am pretty certain most of these drivers would be angry with or without the horn, so it doesn't much matter to me. The safety benefits also are far too large even if these folks would not tend to be angry either way.

nickthemagicman 8y ago
If they're angry at you then they see you!
- btrettel 8y ago
  Great point. I think I'll highlight that when recommending air horns in the future.
  - nickthemagicman 8y ago
    I ride a motorcycle and it's the same thing. Them seeing you is top priority.
- adrianN 8y ago
  Unfortunately that is not enough to prevent murderous behavior. For example this angry gentleman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwk0tvLCxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwk0tvLCxA
irrational 8y ago
"see horn use as hostility" Of course they do. When people in cars honk at other people in cars, the majority of time it is a sign of hostility. They've been conditioned to perceive the use of a horn as a sign of hostility.
- jshmrsn 8y ago
  In the US. In some places (I know personally China), drivers frequently use their horns simply to tell other drivers that they exist when they are passing. A downside is incredibly noisy roadways.
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_OK_Please https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_OK_Please
- celticninja 8y ago
  Cars need to 2 horns: A) excuse me/I'm here/the light has changed B) you are a fucking idiot
  - rabidrat 8y ago
    A) dit B) dah
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  It's only a sign of hostility if used as such. If I need to remind you to look up from your phone becuase a light has turned green, then a quick "doot" or "doot doot" isn't typically considered hostile. If someone does consider that hostile, then as the parent said, they're probably an angry person regardless, so it's still not the horn that's hostile.
crunchlibrarian 8y ago
If you use an air horn in any context on me there is going to be trouble, I hope you're prepared for that. If you assault someone you should expect a proportional response.
- btrettel 8y ago
  > If you use an air horn in any context on me there is going to be trouble, I hope you're prepared for that. If you assault someone you should expect a proportional response. Fortunately, people like you seem to be fairly rare in my experience. After hundreds of horn uses (more than 500, easily), I might be able to count the number of times that people got noticeably angry at me for honking on one hand. I'm actually struggling to think of examples, but it has happened. Also, horn use is not assault. It causes no harm to the typical recipient as they are in a sealed box, reducing the sound pressure appreciably. That's why I only ever use the air horn on a pedestrian or cyclist if it's absolutely unavoidable. I can only think of one instance where I honked at a pedestrian off the top of my head, and that probably saved the distracted pedestrian from serious injury.
  - def_true_false 8y ago
    A simple "mechanical bike horn" (no idea if that's the right term, but Google image seems to find the right thing when searching for that) might be what you want for pedestrians. I've never seen an air horn that looked usable before, so thanks for that. Looks nice for cycling in traffic.
    - btrettel 8y ago
      On the left side of my handlebars I have a normal bike bell, good for pedestrians and fellow cyclists. On the right I have the air horn, good for drivers who can't hear the bell and emergency situations. I'd recommend having both a normal bell and air horn.
      - def_true_false 8y ago
        Yeah, bell is what I meant. Are there are any air horns that are controlled with something similar to a gear shifter (the lever thingy)?
polaritron 8y ago
A lot of people keep their motorcycles extra loud for this reason. It pisses people off, to hear an extremely loud motorcycle engine, but a subset of riders don't do it to be cool, but really to gain attention as a survival mechanism. An overlapping group do it for both reasons.
- athenot 8y ago
  Unfortunately it's near useless since the bulk of the sound is directed towards the back of the bike; and it's the front that would make the most use of it (left turn in front of you, run-over merge, etc). I ride and don't like relying on annoyance for survival: it only makes things worse. Better idea: assume you're invisible and ride with always at least 1 escape route.
- phyzome 8y ago
  When people go blaring down my residential street at 10 PM at night I start to fantasize about stringing up a cargo net. I don't think that's working for them as a survival mechanism. (Context: I bicycle in Boston, so I know what the roads are like, although I'm sure it's somewhat different for motorcycles.)
  - polaritron 8y ago
    On motorcycles you can be just a little bit more agressive, but selectively. There's enough power to assert high speeds, and take the lead with quick acceleration, but due to the amount of surface area in contact with the ground, motorcycles have lower agility than bicycles, based on the weight that gets thrown around. With most motorcycles weighing well over 200 pounds, depending on speeds, the usual turning radius cuts a pretty wide arc (not very maneuverable, ultimately), and stopping too short will throw you off the bike. You just lock up the tires, or peel out if you don't finesse the amount of force in play. They can do more than a car, in terms of turning and stopping, but it requires agility, dexterity and practice. Whereas with a car you can just slam the brakes, and toss it in any gear, do whatever, and not even think about balance. So, in a situation where you gain a feel for the attitude of some random car, and the driver is radiating the demeanor of a total dickwad, there are three choices. A. Stop, reroute, and go anywhere that fucker isn't. (the best, and most common decision, more than you might ever know) B. Clutch the transmission and rev loudly, to see if they know you exist, which often doesn't work because people listen to music and mostly try to ignore the world around them. C. When they inevitably don't respond to options A & B, release the clutch, and rev the engine to launch in front of that prick and blast off. Fuck the world. People just really don't like to give other people choices, so you wind up doing a burnout in front of them, because they keep stepping on your toes. Hurts me more than it hurts them. Such is life.
browsercoin 8y ago
same can be argued for loud Harley or Indian motorcycles. tbh, they are going overboard but I always wondered if a loud bike truly is safer? It makes sense that if you hear your doors rattling on the highway, the tactile feedback from the monstrous motorcycle exhaust sound immediately catches attention. Also, there is an intimidation factor as well. Meh, I say your life and safety is of higher priority. but do not be surprised if somebody snaps, I've watched too many /r/publicfreakouts to know what the emotional threshold of an adult commuter is these days.
mveety 8y ago
I'm not a cyclist, but I'm a huge fan of having these on bikes. They've become more popular in my area and because of that you notice the bicycles earlier so you have a much smaller chance of accidentally hitting them because you don't see them. After I started seeing these, I've become quite baffled why more cyclists don't use them. Also I wish that road vehicles had radios so drivers and riders could communicate intention like we do when flying. All you have for communication in a car is turn signals, high beams, and a horn, and many drivers take severe umbrage if you use them because they willfully or accidentally misunderstand what you're trying to say.
- godelski 8y ago
  > Also I wish that road vehicles had radios so drivers and riders could communicate intention like we do when flying NO! Dear god no! Most people suck at communicating and could you imagine to road rage? Even though as a pilot you aren't supposed to chit chat on the radio I'm positive you've heard it. Also you couldn't realistically set up something like ATC so you could have flight following. Not only would tracking that many vehicles be extremely difficult, but setting up all the transponders and receivers would be near impossible. You may notice you have a hard time talking to ATC below 1kft AGL. Plus everyone is in such close proximity at all times what are they going to do? "November 1234 Whisky, you have a Chevy incoming from your 6 oh clock passing on the left. Stay course." Or (in general channel) "Traffic at 6th and main, there is a cyclist approaching from the East on 6th, please use caution" and everyone that isn't at 6th and main tunes out, learning to tune things out. Flight works because even at a busy airport the communication is still relatively small.
- bacon_waffle 8y ago
  > I'm not a cyclist, but I'm a huge fan of having these on bikes. They've become more popular in my area and because of that you notice the bicycles earlier so you have a much smaller chance of accidentally hitting them because you don't see them. After I started seeing these, I've become quite baffled why more cyclists don't use them. I find the sentiment in your first paragraph to be baffling, though common. The problem isn't that horns (or high viz, helmets, or flashing lights) are a bad idea, or that you're wishing that more people would use them - I agree that more should use them. My issue is that the sentiment displaces responsibility on to the cyclist, from the person operating the dangerous machine. It's up to the cyclist to decide what gear works for them, and the burden of responsibility is firmly on the driver to not hit other people using the road. It seems like every couple weeks, our local paper runs an article on another driver running in to a cyclist, and it nearly always frames the event as "cyclist hit by car" (notice we're already biased - "other-class-of-person hit by machine"), then proceeds to answer the "was the cyclist wearing high viz?". This creates a situation where it's more acceptable to drive carelessly, so long as the victim isn't following your locale's particular safety checklist. Remember that there are a bunch of reasons people bike, and a lot of them are counter to some of these recommended safety products; people don't want to mess up their hair for work, have to wear a dark school uniform, can't afford lights, haven't considered any of this stuff, don't have a safe cycle lane to use...
BurningFrog 8y ago
The air horn is such a 100+ year old technology. I hope an electronic proximity based system with a bigger vocabulary than "HONK!" appears in the next decade.
- LambdaComplex 8y ago
  I don't think you're going to find an electric horn that can get as loud as an air horn.
  - dwringer 8y ago
    I can't count how many times I've thought of the usefulness of a system as described by the grandparent comment. The best I can come up with so far is some kind of dedicated screen, with always-on audio capabilities similar to dash instrumentation, made mandatory in all vehicles and accessible via an open wireless protocol (possibly a hybrid of different signaling mechanisms like wifi and infrared signals). These signals could be prioritized for emergency vehicles using a special FCC-controlled frequency/protocol and rate-limited to prevent abuses. A big potentially insurmountable issue is exploitation of the emergency services protocol, so that part might be wishful thinking. Unfortunately without it the system seems like it would end up as more of a nuisance in many peoples' minds, and would never be legislated as mandatory.
  - macintux 8y ago
    I interpreted that as "I hope my car will soon know when nearby cars are about to encroach on my space because they're all talking to each other".
  - BurningFrog 8y ago
    I imagine you could get a sound played on the speakers in the car you're targeting.
burkemw3 8y ago
I am a US transportation cyclist. I mostly dislike vehicle (including bicycle) horns. If it's a close enough call with another vehicle, my voice has been enough of a 'horn' to alert drives. If there's a less close conflict, then there's probably positioning/visibility change that should have happened upstream. For me, horns are a too frequent, rude disruption in the world.
- btrettel 8y ago
  In my experience a horn is far superior to a voice. For one, it's much louder. And as rude as a horn might seem to some, I've had much worse experience from shouting at drivers. It doesn't matter how polite you try to be. The volume of your voice is going to make you seem like a jerk. In contrast, most drivers respond fine to my air horn. I agree that horns can be rude and disruptive, and perhaps most honks are. But I stand by every time I've used mine. I don't use it frivolously. Whereas drivers seem to use their horns frequently because they are impatient, I use it only because I'm in danger.
isostatic 8y ago
> The horn is also great for giving bad drivers feedback How many times per trip do you have to recharge it?
- btrettel 8y ago
  I recharge it roughly weekly. The air tank is good for probably about 20 honks.
tqi 8y ago
> I'll often give a few toots before approaching an intersection to increase the chance that I am seen. Are you also stopping at the intersection?
- btrettel 8y ago
  Should I stop at intersections where I have right of way and a driver on the cross street might be turning right on red? (I can't tell precisely because far too many people don't signal.) Because that's the most frequent reason I'll give a few toots of the horn.
  - tqi 8y ago
    Definitely not if you have the right of way. I do the same thing when I'm driving and I see a car creeping forward to making a right turn as I approach the intersection.
btbuildem 8y ago
As a fellow commuting cyclist, I find that the most effective "tool", by far, is constant awareness, and a significantly reduced faith in humanity. I assume that everyone is distracted and not paying attention to what they're doing, and that informs my "riding rules": Try to make eye contact, don't assume you've been seen. Never be in the blind spot. Never pass on the right. Cross on a red light to get ahead of the pack of cars.
- branchless 8y ago
  Great last tip. Cycling for decades in major cities. Sometimes running a light is safer. The infra is not good enough, you have to think for yourself.
spike021 8y ago
>I'll often give a few toots before approaching an intersection to increase the chance that I am seen. And it has probably saved me from some major crashes when I lay down the horn on someone. When are you doing this? When you go through a green light? Or is this when there's a chance for cross-traffic, say going through a yellow or red light? The only reason I ask is because whenever I'm in SF, at least half the bicyclists I see, if not more, run all the lights and stop signs.
- btrettel 8y ago
  A green light is one possibility, as are people pulling out into the street without looking. See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17910799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17910799 I never run red lights or stop signs, and don't appreciate being associated with bad cyclists any more than you would probably appreciate being associated with bad drivers.
  - spike021 8y ago
    >don't appreciate being associated with bad cyclists any more than you would probably appreciate being associated with bad drivers. Sorry you got that impression, but I was simply asking. Nothing wrong with getting more context, is there?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - btrettel 8y ago
      > Nothing wrong with getting more context, is there? In principle, no. But you didn't need to add the part about cyclists breaking the law. Many if not most cyclists would find that offensive. Over the years I've heard many drivers suggest that the reason I don't get respect on the road is that I probably break the law. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that I might be using my air horn so frequently because I run red lights and stop signs and want to stop traffic that has the right of way. When stated that way, the suggestion seems ridiculous. If a driver said that they needed to use their horn frequently, I wouldn't suggest that they might be road raging at everyone or something similar, even if I thought that were likely or true. I'd just ask for context without any assumptions.
otoburb 8y ago
>>Some drivers unfortunately see horn use as hostility. I have dealt with a few road raging drivers who were very angry that I honked at them. You'll fit right at home biking in NYC since constant car honking is par for the course, although pedestrians will probably be pretty shocked when you let loose the Zound from the bike lane.
- btrettel 8y ago
  I also have a normal bike bell that works fine on pedestrians and other cyclists. I never use an air horn on a pedestrian unless there's no other way to get them out of the way in time. The one time I horned a pedestrian that comes to mind was like that. This guy was walking distracted and he decided to come off the sidewalk and directly into the bike lane without looking perhaps 20-30 feet in front of me. I was traveling around 15 to 20 mph. I hit the brakes hard but immediately knew I would still hit him unless he jumped out of the way. That's where the air horn came in. He jumped out of the way. No harm to him aside from perhaps some temporary tinnitus. Horn use was unavoidable in my view.
throwaway8689 8y ago
Using your horn as feedback means you missed the moment. It's all the times you anticipated a problem and used it preemptively that are keeping you from getting a ride in my ambulance.
- btrettel 8y ago
  > Using your horn as feedback means you missed the moment. Perhaps. I try my best, and think I avoid the vast majority of potential conflicts that come my way. But I can't avoid them all. I can prepare for the common problems, e.g., drivers turning into the bike lane without looking or doing a right turn on red that hits me or goes directly into my path. But those don't cover all possibilities, and I'm continually surprised by the diversity of bad driving that I've seen.
tempz 8y ago
Few weeks after installing really loud air horn, it became apparent that: - it's impossible to effectively use horn and brakes in emergencies; - one starts to rely on the horn clearing the way instead of slowing down, which is suicidally dumb; - horn is used after-the-fact, which needlessly raises the temperature. The only sensible use is to alert far-away pedestrians that are obviously going to do something stupid.
- btrettel 8y ago
  Fair points. I never had the second or third problems. I don't use the horn on pedestrians unless strictly necessary, nor do I honk at people as revenge. The first point was a challenge at the beginning, but I think I've done fine using both the brakes and the horn at the same time. I can think of any least one instance where both were necessary to avoid a crash. I'm certain my worst case stopping time has increased at least a small amount, but it's a worthwhile trade-off in my view.
jac_no_k 8y ago
Cycle commuter (30km+ each way) here in Tokyo. I find yelling effective, but this might just be of my location where music is played at a reasonable level. Don't need to move my hands to activate and easy to modulate from "passing through" to "I'm here, don't back into me!". Another effective item is a 1,400 lumen lamp. Set to strobe as needed. You know, I would pay for something that integrates a two stage horn (announce or loud) and push to strobe lamp; remotely switched by buttons in the handlebar wrap on the brifter. (think electronic shifting buttons and remote shifting buttons).

nickthemagicman 8y ago

If they're angry at you then they see you!

btrettel 8y ago
Great point. I think I'll highlight that when recommending air horns in the future.
- nickthemagicman 8y ago
  I ride a motorcycle and it's the same thing. Them seeing you is top priority.
adrianN 8y ago
Unfortunately that is not enough to prevent murderous behavior. For example this angry gentleman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwk0tvLCxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBwk0tvLCxA

irrational 8y ago

"see horn use as hostility" Of course they do. When people in cars honk at other people in cars, the majority of time it is a sign of hostility. They've been conditioned to perceive the use of a horn as a sign of hostility.

jshmrsn 8y ago
In the US. In some places (I know personally China), drivers frequently use their horns simply to tell other drivers that they exist when they are passing. A downside is incredibly noisy roadways.
BurningFrog 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_OK_Please https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_OK_Please
celticninja 8y ago
Cars need to 2 horns: A) excuse me/I'm here/the light has changed B) you are a fucking idiot
- rabidrat 8y ago
  A) dit B) dah
stronglikedan 8y ago
It's only a sign of hostility if used as such. If I need to remind you to look up from your phone becuase a light has turned green, then a quick "doot" or "doot doot" isn't typically considered hostile. If someone does consider that hostile, then as the parent said, they're probably an angry person regardless, so it's still not the horn that's hostile.

crunchlibrarian 8y ago

If you use an air horn in any context on me there is going to be trouble, I hope you're prepared for that. If you assault someone you should expect a proportional response.

btrettel 8y ago
> If you use an air horn in any context on me there is going to be trouble, I hope you're prepared for that. If you assault someone you should expect a proportional response. Fortunately, people like you seem to be fairly rare in my experience. After hundreds of horn uses (more than 500, easily), I might be able to count the number of times that people got noticeably angry at me for honking on one hand. I'm actually struggling to think of examples, but it has happened. Also, horn use is not assault. It causes no harm to the typical recipient as they are in a sealed box, reducing the sound pressure appreciably. That's why I only ever use the air horn on a pedestrian or cyclist if it's absolutely unavoidable. I can only think of one instance where I honked at a pedestrian off the top of my head, and that probably saved the distracted pedestrian from serious injury.
- def_true_false 8y ago
  A simple "mechanical bike horn" (no idea if that's the right term, but Google image seems to find the right thing when searching for that) might be what you want for pedestrians. I've never seen an air horn that looked usable before, so thanks for that. Looks nice for cycling in traffic.
  - btrettel 8y ago
    On the left side of my handlebars I have a normal bike bell, good for pedestrians and fellow cyclists. On the right I have the air horn, good for drivers who can't hear the bell and emergency situations. I'd recommend having both a normal bell and air horn.
    - def_true_false 8y ago
      Yeah, bell is what I meant. Are there are any air horns that are controlled with something similar to a gear shifter (the lever thingy)?

polaritron 8y ago

A lot of people keep their motorcycles extra loud for this reason. It pisses people off, to hear an extremely loud motorcycle engine, but a subset of riders don't do it to be cool, but really to gain attention as a survival mechanism. An overlapping group do it for both reasons.

athenot 8y ago
Unfortunately it's near useless since the bulk of the sound is directed towards the back of the bike; and it's the front that would make the most use of it (left turn in front of you, run-over merge, etc). I ride and don't like relying on annoyance for survival: it only makes things worse. Better idea: assume you're invisible and ride with always at least 1 escape route.
phyzome 8y ago
When people go blaring down my residential street at 10 PM at night I start to fantasize about stringing up a cargo net. I don't think that's working for them as a survival mechanism. (Context: I bicycle in Boston, so I know what the roads are like, although I'm sure it's somewhat different for motorcycles.)
- polaritron 8y ago
  On motorcycles you can be just a little bit more agressive, but selectively. There's enough power to assert high speeds, and take the lead with quick acceleration, but due to the amount of surface area in contact with the ground, motorcycles have lower agility than bicycles, based on the weight that gets thrown around. With most motorcycles weighing well over 200 pounds, depending on speeds, the usual turning radius cuts a pretty wide arc (not very maneuverable, ultimately), and stopping too short will throw you off the bike. You just lock up the tires, or peel out if you don't finesse the amount of force in play. They can do more than a car, in terms of turning and stopping, but it requires agility, dexterity and practice. Whereas with a car you can just slam the brakes, and toss it in any gear, do whatever, and not even think about balance. So, in a situation where you gain a feel for the attitude of some random car, and the driver is radiating the demeanor of a total dickwad, there are three choices. A. Stop, reroute, and go anywhere that fucker isn't. (the best, and most common decision, more than you might ever know) B. Clutch the transmission and rev loudly, to see if they know you exist, which often doesn't work because people listen to music and mostly try to ignore the world around them. C. When they inevitably don't respond to options A & B, release the clutch, and rev the engine to launch in front of that prick and blast off. Fuck the world. People just really don't like to give other people choices, so you wind up doing a burnout in front of them, because they keep stepping on your toes. Hurts me more than it hurts them. Such is life.

browsercoin 8y ago

same can be argued for loud Harley or Indian motorcycles. tbh, they are going overboard but I always wondered if a loud bike truly is safer? It makes sense that if you hear your doors rattling on the highway, the tactile feedback from the monstrous motorcycle exhaust sound immediately catches attention. Also, there is an intimidation factor as well. Meh, I say your life and safety is of higher priority. but do not be surprised if somebody snaps, I've watched too many /r/publicfreakouts to know what the emotional threshold of an adult commuter is these days.

mveety 8y ago

I'm not a cyclist, but I'm a huge fan of having these on bikes. They've become more popular in my area and because of that you notice the bicycles earlier so you have a much smaller chance of accidentally hitting them because you don't see them. After I started seeing these, I've become quite baffled why more cyclists don't use them. Also I wish that road vehicles had radios so drivers and riders could communicate intention like we do when flying. All you have for communication in a car is turn signals, high beams, and a horn, and many drivers take severe umbrage if you use them because they willfully or accidentally misunderstand what you're trying to say.

godelski 8y ago
> Also I wish that road vehicles had radios so drivers and riders could communicate intention like we do when flying NO! Dear god no! Most people suck at communicating and could you imagine to road rage? Even though as a pilot you aren't supposed to chit chat on the radio I'm positive you've heard it. Also you couldn't realistically set up something like ATC so you could have flight following. Not only would tracking that many vehicles be extremely difficult, but setting up all the transponders and receivers would be near impossible. You may notice you have a hard time talking to ATC below 1kft AGL. Plus everyone is in such close proximity at all times what are they going to do? "November 1234 Whisky, you have a Chevy incoming from your 6 oh clock passing on the left. Stay course." Or (in general channel) "Traffic at 6th and main, there is a cyclist approaching from the East on 6th, please use caution" and everyone that isn't at 6th and main tunes out, learning to tune things out. Flight works because even at a busy airport the communication is still relatively small.
bacon_waffle 8y ago
> I'm not a cyclist, but I'm a huge fan of having these on bikes. They've become more popular in my area and because of that you notice the bicycles earlier so you have a much smaller chance of accidentally hitting them because you don't see them. After I started seeing these, I've become quite baffled why more cyclists don't use them. I find the sentiment in your first paragraph to be baffling, though common. The problem isn't that horns (or high viz, helmets, or flashing lights) are a bad idea, or that you're wishing that more people would use them - I agree that more should use them. My issue is that the sentiment displaces responsibility on to the cyclist, from the person operating the dangerous machine. It's up to the cyclist to decide what gear works for them, and the burden of responsibility is firmly on the driver to not hit other people using the road. It seems like every couple weeks, our local paper runs an article on another driver running in to a cyclist, and it nearly always frames the event as "cyclist hit by car" (notice we're already biased - "other-class-of-person hit by machine"), then proceeds to answer the "was the cyclist wearing high viz?". This creates a situation where it's more acceptable to drive carelessly, so long as the victim isn't following your locale's particular safety checklist. Remember that there are a bunch of reasons people bike, and a lot of them are counter to some of these recommended safety products; people don't want to mess up their hair for work, have to wear a dark school uniform, can't afford lights, haven't considered any of this stuff, don't have a safe cycle lane to use...

BurningFrog 8y ago

The air horn is such a 100+ year old technology. I hope an electronic proximity based system with a bigger vocabulary than "HONK!" appears in the next decade.

LambdaComplex 8y ago
I don't think you're going to find an electric horn that can get as loud as an air horn.
- dwringer 8y ago
  I can't count how many times I've thought of the usefulness of a system as described by the grandparent comment. The best I can come up with so far is some kind of dedicated screen, with always-on audio capabilities similar to dash instrumentation, made mandatory in all vehicles and accessible via an open wireless protocol (possibly a hybrid of different signaling mechanisms like wifi and infrared signals). These signals could be prioritized for emergency vehicles using a special FCC-controlled frequency/protocol and rate-limited to prevent abuses. A big potentially insurmountable issue is exploitation of the emergency services protocol, so that part might be wishful thinking. Unfortunately without it the system seems like it would end up as more of a nuisance in many peoples' minds, and would never be legislated as mandatory.
- macintux 8y ago
  I interpreted that as "I hope my car will soon know when nearby cars are about to encroach on my space because they're all talking to each other".
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  I imagine you could get a sound played on the speakers in the car you're targeting.

burkemw3 8y ago

I am a US transportation cyclist. I mostly dislike vehicle (including bicycle) horns. If it's a close enough call with another vehicle, my voice has been enough of a 'horn' to alert drives. If there's a less close conflict, then there's probably positioning/visibility change that should have happened upstream. For me, horns are a too frequent, rude disruption in the world.

btrettel 8y ago
In my experience a horn is far superior to a voice. For one, it's much louder. And as rude as a horn might seem to some, I've had much worse experience from shouting at drivers. It doesn't matter how polite you try to be. The volume of your voice is going to make you seem like a jerk. In contrast, most drivers respond fine to my air horn. I agree that horns can be rude and disruptive, and perhaps most honks are. But I stand by every time I've used mine. I don't use it frivolously. Whereas drivers seem to use their horns frequently because they are impatient, I use it only because I'm in danger.

isostatic 8y ago

> The horn is also great for giving bad drivers feedback How many times per trip do you have to recharge it?

btrettel 8y ago
I recharge it roughly weekly. The air tank is good for probably about 20 honks.

tqi 8y ago

> I'll often give a few toots before approaching an intersection to increase the chance that I am seen. Are you also stopping at the intersection?

btrettel 8y ago
Should I stop at intersections where I have right of way and a driver on the cross street might be turning right on red? (I can't tell precisely because far too many people don't signal.) Because that's the most frequent reason I'll give a few toots of the horn.
- tqi 8y ago
  Definitely not if you have the right of way. I do the same thing when I'm driving and I see a car creeping forward to making a right turn as I approach the intersection.

btbuildem 8y ago

As a fellow commuting cyclist, I find that the most effective "tool", by far, is constant awareness, and a significantly reduced faith in humanity. I assume that everyone is distracted and not paying attention to what they're doing, and that informs my "riding rules": Try to make eye contact, don't assume you've been seen. Never be in the blind spot. Never pass on the right. Cross on a red light to get ahead of the pack of cars.

branchless 8y ago
Great last tip. Cycling for decades in major cities. Sometimes running a light is safer. The infra is not good enough, you have to think for yourself.

spike021 8y ago

>I'll often give a few toots before approaching an intersection to increase the chance that I am seen. And it has probably saved me from some major crashes when I lay down the horn on someone. When are you doing this? When you go through a green light? Or is this when there's a chance for cross-traffic, say going through a yellow or red light? The only reason I ask is because whenever I'm in SF, at least half the bicyclists I see, if not more, run all the lights and stop signs.

btrettel 8y ago
A green light is one possibility, as are people pulling out into the street without looking. See this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17910799 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17910799 I never run red lights or stop signs, and don't appreciate being associated with bad cyclists any more than you would probably appreciate being associated with bad drivers.
- spike021 8y ago
  >don't appreciate being associated with bad cyclists any more than you would probably appreciate being associated with bad drivers. Sorry you got that impression, but I was simply asking. Nothing wrong with getting more context, is there?
  - deleted 8y ago
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  - btrettel 8y ago
    > Nothing wrong with getting more context, is there? In principle, no. But you didn't need to add the part about cyclists breaking the law. Many if not most cyclists would find that offensive. Over the years I've heard many drivers suggest that the reason I don't get respect on the road is that I probably break the law. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that I might be using my air horn so frequently because I run red lights and stop signs and want to stop traffic that has the right of way. When stated that way, the suggestion seems ridiculous. If a driver said that they needed to use their horn frequently, I wouldn't suggest that they might be road raging at everyone or something similar, even if I thought that were likely or true. I'd just ask for context without any assumptions.

otoburb 8y ago

>>Some drivers unfortunately see horn use as hostility. I have dealt with a few road raging drivers who were very angry that I honked at them. You'll fit right at home biking in NYC since constant car honking is par for the course, although pedestrians will probably be pretty shocked when you let loose the Zound from the bike lane.

btrettel 8y ago
I also have a normal bike bell that works fine on pedestrians and other cyclists. I never use an air horn on a pedestrian unless there's no other way to get them out of the way in time. The one time I horned a pedestrian that comes to mind was like that. This guy was walking distracted and he decided to come off the sidewalk and directly into the bike lane without looking perhaps 20-30 feet in front of me. I was traveling around 15 to 20 mph. I hit the brakes hard but immediately knew I would still hit him unless he jumped out of the way. That's where the air horn came in. He jumped out of the way. No harm to him aside from perhaps some temporary tinnitus. Horn use was unavoidable in my view.

throwaway8689 8y ago

Using your horn as feedback means you missed the moment. It's all the times you anticipated a problem and used it preemptively that are keeping you from getting a ride in my ambulance.

btrettel 8y ago
> Using your horn as feedback means you missed the moment. Perhaps. I try my best, and think I avoid the vast majority of potential conflicts that come my way. But I can't avoid them all. I can prepare for the common problems, e.g., drivers turning into the bike lane without looking or doing a right turn on red that hits me or goes directly into my path. But those don't cover all possibilities, and I'm continually surprised by the diversity of bad driving that I've seen.

tempz 8y ago

Few weeks after installing really loud air horn, it became apparent that: - it's impossible to effectively use horn and brakes in emergencies; - one starts to rely on the horn clearing the way instead of slowing down, which is suicidally dumb; - horn is used after-the-fact, which needlessly raises the temperature. The only sensible use is to alert far-away pedestrians that are obviously going to do something stupid.

btrettel 8y ago
Fair points. I never had the second or third problems. I don't use the horn on pedestrians unless strictly necessary, nor do I honk at people as revenge. The first point was a challenge at the beginning, but I think I've done fine using both the brakes and the horn at the same time. I can think of any least one instance where both were necessary to avoid a crash. I'm certain my worst case stopping time has increased at least a small amount, but it's a worthwhile trade-off in my view.

jac_no_k 8y ago

Cycle commuter (30km+ each way) here in Tokyo. I find yelling effective, but this might just be of my location where music is played at a reasonable level. Don't need to move my hands to activate and easy to modulate from "passing through" to "I'm here, don't back into me!". Another effective item is a 1,400 lumen lamp. Set to strobe as needed. You know, I would pay for something that integrates a two stage horn (announce or loud) and push to strobe lamp; remotely switched by buttons in the handlebar wrap on the brifter. (think electronic shifting buttons and remote shifting buttons).