> "What good is one man's efforts if the community isn't interested in a full-featured framework?" The community that grew around Rails didn't exist in the Rub

> "What good is one man's efforts if the community isn't interested in a full-featured framework?" The community that grew around Rails didn't exist in the Ruby community prior to its release. Many discovered Ruby via Rails, not vice versa. IIRC, I was first exposed to Clojure though the extended Ruby community, having been exposed to Rails. I also recognized that while Rails was useful for some things and introduced me to some good practices that spread through the Ruby community, I also came to think that the MVC pattern encouraged by Rails is actually an anti-pattern: one that works well in some cases but doesn't actually encourage one to learn better application design, that one molds the application to the framework. Applying that to Clojure, I personally haven't seen a great way to make a generalized framework that does encourage good application design. Just porting Rails MVC framework from Ruby to Clojure isn't something that interests me. But that's just me. I don't expect others to necessarily share my opinions. If I see something I want improve, I write a library or submit a patch. Again, I hear you blaming the Clojure community for something that individuals need to do. Have you hired or contracted someone to design such a framework? Is it something that you would use personally? What would such a framework look like to you? I was glad to hear about Arachne, although what I heard didn't sound like something I personally would enjoy using. I've found some success using Pedestal. One of the reasons I think Rails was successful is that it was extracted from a successful project. What I hear comments such as your doesn't necessarily reflect this, that it almost expects something written ex nihilo. In my experience, those generally aren't as successful. When I hear "The Clojure community lacks ambition", I frankly see that reflected in your own comment. Where's your ambition? Why expect that of others and not yourself? I guess I'd ask you to be part of the solution rather than pepper comments with complaints, asking things of the community rather than being an active participant. Be the change you want in to see in the world.