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I love this. But go ahead and have a look at the "Who's hiring" post and you'd be correct to think that investing in languages like Clojure does limit your care

by mavdi 8y ago

I love this. But go ahead and have a look at the "Who's hiring" post and you'd be correct to think that investing in languages like Clojure does limit your career choices. It's depressing I know. I will always write my personal projects in Clojure but it's a shame that I can't rely on it as the primary means of making a living.

moomin 8y ago
I think it’s perfectly possible to have a career in Clojure in London. But, of course, I couldn’t advise anyone to move to the U.K. until the final state of Brexit is known.
- agd 8y ago
  There are a tonne of Elixir jobs in London at the moment. It's a great city to live and work in.
  - cutler 8y ago
    Where exactly? I don't see many. Indeed.co.uk has only a handful of Elixir jobs by title search and Angel.io has hardly any.
    - agd 8y ago
      Look on the elixir job boards, slack and forum. Some companies are hiring for multiple roles. E.g Whitehat are hiring 10 more devs, Toyota are building a team of 20. Etc. There are more open positions than Elixir devs in London atm.
- jtr_47 8y ago
  Don't choose a language because it will make you money. Choose language because it's something to learn and you'll enjoy programming in it. You can know more than 1 language. The main one is that which will earn you an income. The other, or others it to play and enjoy what the language and environment has too offer.
- cutler 8y ago
  Even in London there are only a handful of Clojure jobs. Clojure growth has stagnated. Likewise with Elixir though Elixir has a better chance in the long run due to the community's support for Phoenix.
  - moomin 8y ago
    Worst case Elixir result is you become an Erlang programmer instead.
ramchip 8y ago
After three years of trying to push for adoption, I’m also starting to find it depressing. I’ve talked with various people also looking to introduce Elixir or Clojure in my workplace (large company), and even when it’s a perfect fit for the problem, we invariably hit a wall because it’s not popular enough to be considered seriously. Anything not in the TIOBE top 10 or so might as well not exist.
- didibus 8y ago
  It's easier to ask for forgiveness then for permission. Next time you get a project, just do it in Clojure or Elixir, don't ask. The beauty of this is, if you are using the JVM, JavaScript or Erlang, it doesn't even have to be green field. You can just write a section of the code in it.
  - rapind 8y ago
    Call me old fashioned, but as a developer if I did this I'd feel completely responsible if it didn't turn out well. Not just to the company paying me for my work (which apparently I feel free to do in whatever way I like?), but also to my coworkers who may have to manage more complexity because of my choices. Imagine if everyone on just a 5 person dev team did this... pretty risky, and potentially company sinking behaviour. I've experienced this ethic in others and it sucked (and the person basically shrugged and walked away). Obviously this could work out well, but I suspect most of the time it doesn't. I'm sure there are situations in which it's perfectly fine though. Like working on your own on a fixed quote greenfield project.
    - didibus 8y ago
      Well, you would be responsible if it didn't turn out well. This obviously assumes that you can pull off a successful delivery. But I feel that goes for any project you take on. It's all about calculated risk. If you don't know the language at all, maybe don't do it on a task where you wouldn't have time to pivot back to a language you know if you didn't succeed. And if it added more complexity, well then it was the wrong technical choice that you made. Normally people switch to Clojure[Script] and Elixir in order to lower complexity and help manage it. If for some reason your project would get more complex with the switch, then don't. I mean, why would you want to switch to a language that you thought would make the code worse? Finally, I guess I see myself as employed by my company to specifically make such decisions and bring about positive change. Also, it's okay to say that you're bored, and you need to keep learning and challenge yourself to your employer, otherwise you'll get disinterested and might look elsewhere for work. And this is a way for you to learn and be motivated which costs nothing to them. I mean, that one you can only do if you're valued on your team, but if you are, and I think you'd be surprised more devs are then they think. It's an option. Now, there's ways to do this that work, and won't feel like a big jab at your employer and your co-workers, but it's not easy, and there are risks you have to be willing to take. I did it at my current job. It does take extra effort on my part. Give other devs good support and mentorship when they need to maintain that part. Plant the seed in their minds beforehand. Let them know you started doing it in a different language, and how it's going. And make sure the end product is good, and explain to the business that it was successful in less time, because of the language choice you made. Etc.
jacquesm 8y ago
It's pretty similar to how the best marketed software products will win out over the best software products.
notduncansmith 8y ago
I’ve used Clojure to complete coding challenges that ended in getting hired for full-stack engineering positions, twice. So it’s shown some value there. Aside: If you let yourself get spoiled by Clojure’s efficient data structures and concise functions for manipulating them, it can be really frustrating to work in other languages that aren’t so data-oriented. It feels like it takes forever to “get to the point” when reading most traditional web application code. On the other hand, if you have some flexibility with the program design, you can get many of the same benefits of Clojure in traditional languages by applying Clojure’s data-oriented architecture lessons (it feels almost as good as doing Clojure at work). Even frameworks like Ruby on Rails can be bent with minimal strain to fit the data-first paradigm; it does, however, require some departure from convention. Finally, you can always use Clojure as a secret weapon at your own startup. One of the primary benefits of Clojure is the extreme simplicity of design, and conceptual compression you can achieve as a result. This allows small, even single-person, teams to build and manage an impressive degree of functionality with decent performance. Keep at it part-time, and you’ll grind out a solid MVP in a few weeks.
- cutler 8y ago
  Clojure is my favourite language by far but the community's apathy towards web frameworks continues to do serious damage to its chances of widening adoption. There is Luminus but it's at best a curated list of libraries and the community refuses to throw its weight behind it. It's good as far as it goes but it will never compete with Rails or Django. There's a kind of smug pride in the Clojure world that "we don't do Rails", prefering instead to build everything from the ground up with libraries. Good luck with that one. Look at how few Clojure jobs there are at Indeed.com or Angle.io. Maybe, just maybe, this attitude might have something to do with it.
  - grzm 8y ago
    DHH wrote Rails. An individual. Not a community. Granted, a community grew up around Rails, but it took one person to get it started. The "DHH of Clojure" position is there for the taking. Are you the one to do it? A community is a group of individuals. If you would like to see something like Rails in Clojure, there's nothing stopping you from writing it. "We don't do Rails" is as much a number of individuals not finding a use for a Rails-like framework as it is someone not having written one yet. This isn't language or community specific. If there's something you want to see, write it! Expecting others to meet your needs smacks of entitlement. I find it much more empowering to think of areas for improvement as opportunities, rather than expecting everything to be handed to me. As for job opportunities, some people value ease of getting a job, while others favor working in a language they prefer. Recognizing which you prefer is important, as is recognizing that others may not share the same priorities you do.
didibus 8y ago
Every Java, JavaScript or Erlang shop is possibly a place where you could start using Clojure or Elixir though. But you'd need to champion it yourself.
pjmlp 8y ago
Not necessarily. Learning alternative languages opens our mind to architectures and approaches to solutions that we wouldn't though of when staying in a silo Developer X. As for making a living in Clojure, there a couple of places in Europe using it, HN "Who's hiring" isn't the only source of job ads.

by mavdi 8y ago

moomin 8y ago

I think it’s perfectly possible to have a career in Clojure in London. But, of course, I couldn’t advise anyone to move to the U.K. until the final state of Brexit is known.

agd 8y ago
There are a tonne of Elixir jobs in London at the moment. It's a great city to live and work in.
- cutler 8y ago
  Where exactly? I don't see many. Indeed.co.uk has only a handful of Elixir jobs by title search and Angel.io has hardly any.
  - agd 8y ago
    Look on the elixir job boards, slack and forum. Some companies are hiring for multiple roles. E.g Whitehat are hiring 10 more devs, Toyota are building a team of 20. Etc. There are more open positions than Elixir devs in London atm.
jtr_47 8y ago
Don't choose a language because it will make you money. Choose language because it's something to learn and you'll enjoy programming in it. You can know more than 1 language. The main one is that which will earn you an income. The other, or others it to play and enjoy what the language and environment has too offer.
cutler 8y ago
Even in London there are only a handful of Clojure jobs. Clojure growth has stagnated. Likewise with Elixir though Elixir has a better chance in the long run due to the community's support for Phoenix.
- moomin 8y ago
  Worst case Elixir result is you become an Erlang programmer instead.

ramchip 8y ago

After three years of trying to push for adoption, I’m also starting to find it depressing. I’ve talked with various people also looking to introduce Elixir or Clojure in my workplace (large company), and even when it’s a perfect fit for the problem, we invariably hit a wall because it’s not popular enough to be considered seriously. Anything not in the TIOBE top 10 or so might as well not exist.

didibus 8y ago
It's easier to ask for forgiveness then for permission. Next time you get a project, just do it in Clojure or Elixir, don't ask. The beauty of this is, if you are using the JVM, JavaScript or Erlang, it doesn't even have to be green field. You can just write a section of the code in it.
- rapind 8y ago
  Call me old fashioned, but as a developer if I did this I'd feel completely responsible if it didn't turn out well. Not just to the company paying me for my work (which apparently I feel free to do in whatever way I like?), but also to my coworkers who may have to manage more complexity because of my choices. Imagine if everyone on just a 5 person dev team did this... pretty risky, and potentially company sinking behaviour. I've experienced this ethic in others and it sucked (and the person basically shrugged and walked away). Obviously this could work out well, but I suspect most of the time it doesn't. I'm sure there are situations in which it's perfectly fine though. Like working on your own on a fixed quote greenfield project.
  - didibus 8y ago
    Well, you would be responsible if it didn't turn out well. This obviously assumes that you can pull off a successful delivery. But I feel that goes for any project you take on. It's all about calculated risk. If you don't know the language at all, maybe don't do it on a task where you wouldn't have time to pivot back to a language you know if you didn't succeed. And if it added more complexity, well then it was the wrong technical choice that you made. Normally people switch to Clojure[Script] and Elixir in order to lower complexity and help manage it. If for some reason your project would get more complex with the switch, then don't. I mean, why would you want to switch to a language that you thought would make the code worse? Finally, I guess I see myself as employed by my company to specifically make such decisions and bring about positive change. Also, it's okay to say that you're bored, and you need to keep learning and challenge yourself to your employer, otherwise you'll get disinterested and might look elsewhere for work. And this is a way for you to learn and be motivated which costs nothing to them. I mean, that one you can only do if you're valued on your team, but if you are, and I think you'd be surprised more devs are then they think. It's an option. Now, there's ways to do this that work, and won't feel like a big jab at your employer and your co-workers, but it's not easy, and there are risks you have to be willing to take. I did it at my current job. It does take extra effort on my part. Give other devs good support and mentorship when they need to maintain that part. Plant the seed in their minds beforehand. Let them know you started doing it in a different language, and how it's going. And make sure the end product is good, and explain to the business that it was successful in less time, because of the language choice you made. Etc.

jacquesm 8y ago

It's pretty similar to how the best marketed software products will win out over the best software products.

notduncansmith 8y ago

I’ve used Clojure to complete coding challenges that ended in getting hired for full-stack engineering positions, twice. So it’s shown some value there. Aside: If you let yourself get spoiled by Clojure’s efficient data structures and concise functions for manipulating them, it can be really frustrating to work in other languages that aren’t so data-oriented. It feels like it takes forever to “get to the point” when reading most traditional web application code. On the other hand, if you have some flexibility with the program design, you can get many of the same benefits of Clojure in traditional languages by applying Clojure’s data-oriented architecture lessons (it feels almost as good as doing Clojure at work). Even frameworks like Ruby on Rails can be bent with minimal strain to fit the data-first paradigm; it does, however, require some departure from convention. Finally, you can always use Clojure as a secret weapon at your own startup. One of the primary benefits of Clojure is the extreme simplicity of design, and conceptual compression you can achieve as a result. This allows small, even single-person, teams to build and manage an impressive degree of functionality with decent performance. Keep at it part-time, and you’ll grind out a solid MVP in a few weeks.

cutler 8y ago
Clojure is my favourite language by far but the community's apathy towards web frameworks continues to do serious damage to its chances of widening adoption. There is Luminus but it's at best a curated list of libraries and the community refuses to throw its weight behind it. It's good as far as it goes but it will never compete with Rails or Django. There's a kind of smug pride in the Clojure world that "we don't do Rails", prefering instead to build everything from the ground up with libraries. Good luck with that one. Look at how few Clojure jobs there are at Indeed.com or Angle.io. Maybe, just maybe, this attitude might have something to do with it.
- grzm 8y ago
  DHH wrote Rails. An individual. Not a community. Granted, a community grew up around Rails, but it took one person to get it started. The "DHH of Clojure" position is there for the taking. Are you the one to do it? A community is a group of individuals. If you would like to see something like Rails in Clojure, there's nothing stopping you from writing it. "We don't do Rails" is as much a number of individuals not finding a use for a Rails-like framework as it is someone not having written one yet. This isn't language or community specific. If there's something you want to see, write it! Expecting others to meet your needs smacks of entitlement. I find it much more empowering to think of areas for improvement as opportunities, rather than expecting everything to be handed to me. As for job opportunities, some people value ease of getting a job, while others favor working in a language they prefer. Recognizing which you prefer is important, as is recognizing that others may not share the same priorities you do.

didibus 8y ago

Every Java, JavaScript or Erlang shop is possibly a place where you could start using Clojure or Elixir though. But you'd need to champion it yourself.

pjmlp 8y ago

Not necessarily. Learning alternative languages opens our mind to architectures and approaches to solutions that we wouldn't though of when staying in a silo Developer X. As for making a living in Clojure, there a couple of places in Europe using it, HN "Who's hiring" isn't the only source of job ads.