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My father retired from the fire department at fifty-three and has been collecting a gold-plated pension for twenty years already, and will probably get ten more

My father retired from the fire department at fifty-three and has been collecting a gold-plated pension for twenty years already, and will probably get ten more years. Assuming my mother outlives him, she will collect ninety percent of his benefits until she dies, possibly ten years further. The pension plan includes full health benefits including dental. The monthly payout is periodically adjusted for inflation. How can retirement funds survive people working for thirty years and collecting benefits for forty? I'll say this - if you have yet to decide a career - pick firefighting! Firefighters still have insane retirement plans almost everywhere, although some are being converted to 401k as reality sets in. Maybe a very small percentage of tech workers will have full lifetime compensation anywhere near what firefighters will have.

maxxxxx 8y ago
I talked to someone working in a crime lab a while ago. She makes 100k+ and will be able to retire at 50 with 80% of income. Pretty sweet gig!
- claydavisss 8y ago
  For bonus points these people typically take on an "act two" career while continuing to pile up the pension benefits. Great example of this - spoke last year to a retired San Jose cop who now works as head of security for a San Jose school district. Public employees have thought strategically about retirement. Tech workers haven't. In twenty years this will be a big deal, particularly for techies in expensive metros who never even got as far as building up equity in a home.
  - yborg 8y ago
    >Public employees have thought strategically about retirement Public sector employees have unions, which thought strategically about retirement. Tech workers don't, by and large, because we are too smart to fall for the union meme and will all retire early by virtue of our elite skills, not some kind of sinecure. Blue collar private industry workers once had solid pension plans as well, which died along with union membership. The reason that public sector unions survive is because their membership is paid by property taxes, and don't directly affect a corporate bottom line. The likes of the firefighter and police unions are also protected by the general "patriotism" umbrella, even the most conservative anti-labor constituency will avoid criticizing public safety workers.
    - claydavisss 8y ago
      Techies tend to fare comparatively better than their peers early on - most programmers in SF aged 27 are probably out-earning their peers from college. From this stems the notion that techies do not need organization. We'll see what happens in twenty years - my guess is programmer wages will be severely depressed by the older generation that can't stop working and will accept a lower "survival" wage.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        "We'll see what happens in twenty years - my guess is programmer wages will be severely depressed by the older generation that can't stop working and will accept a lower "survival" wage. " It will be interesting. You already have that weird curve where people start pretty high, climb some more for the next 10 years and then either stagnate or often go down in salary. I don't know of any other profession where you often make less the more experience you have.
hutzlibu 8y ago
Well, it is not everywhere as good as this. But I would add, that compared to a tech workers, firefighters risk their life at work. And exposition to toxic gases, etc. But I assume that the pension compensation might be from a time when protection equipmemt was less sophisticated..
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Don't forget that fire departments (like police and military) have a lot of administrative positions that never encounter a dangerous situation and still get the same pensions.
  - claydavisss 8y ago
    Firefighters who become officers earn higher pay in supervisory roles, so their pensions are even better than non-officers who will tend to encounter the most danger.
- DenisM 8y ago
  Pizza delivery workers risk their lives more than firefighters: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_minute/2003/10/smoke_and_mirrors.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_m...
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    Well, I guess nobody ever said, life is fair ... But it would be actually nice, if we can arrange things a bit more adequately..
krrrh 8y ago
I don’t know if it’s true everywhere, but since firefighters work on call, they are usually on a days-on/days-off schedule. It’s not at all uncommon for them to have a side-hustle working as a tradesman on their days off, and there’s no reason that couldn’t include programming.
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Retirement age is increasing, pensions are becoming more rare. Only organizations with overpowerful unions (public transit and police in various places) have these absurd pensions.
village-idiot 8y ago
If the elderly are active, they might have to go back to work as pensions become insolvent under the weight of unexpected life expectancy changes. On the flip side, this would have a devastating impact on the young while the elderly are transitioning back to work, as the sudden glut of experienced workers would depress wages and demand for inexperienced younger hands.
dba7dba 8y ago
Yes, a career as a firefighter is a great one, only if you can get into it somehow. Those in the know already know this and actively try to channel their sons/nephews/friends into firefighting jobs. 1. Los Angeles Times recently did some reporting on Los Angeles Fire Department. Turns out many of the new hires are sons/nephews/friends of active firefighters. And application process included no public access, like no online application process. So when this was fist reported, LAFD did do online application process, but it was available only for an hour or so. Again, you couldn't have known this unless you had insider connection. And I heard through friend of friend with connections in LA City. There are Los Angeles Firefighters who collect Disability Pay ON TOP of regular pay after going through some major fire incident. They can claim trauma of the major fire is hardship enough so while they work regular hours and collect regular pay, they can also receive Disability pay. 2. And then there's articles like this: "Battling treacherous office chairs and aching backs, aging cops and firefighters miss years of work and collect twice the pay" http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drop-20180203-htmlstory.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drop-20180203-... excerpt When Capt. Tia Morris turned 50, after about three decades in the Los Angeles Police Department, she became eligible to retire with nearly 90% of her salary. But like many cops and firefighters in her position, the decision to keep working was a financial no-brainer, thanks to a program that allowed her to nearly double her pay by keeping her salary while also collecting her pension. A month after Morris entered the program, her husband, a detective, joined too. Their combined income for four years in the Deferred Retirement Option Plan was just shy of $2 million, city payroll records show. But the city didn’t benefit much from the Morrises’ experience: They both filed claims for carpal tunnel syndrome and other cumulative ailments about halfway through the program. She spent nearly two years on disability and sick leave; he missed more than two years, according to a Times analysis of city payroll data. We are all screwed, except for those on PUBLIC pensions.
kartan 8y ago
> How can retirement funds survive people working for thirty years and collecting benefits for forty? One part of the answer is productivity. (https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm) You need more production to fulfil the needs of the non-working elders. You can achieve that by increasing the number of workers (producers), or by increasing the amount produced by unit (productivity). But then the problem is how to distribute the result. This was Stephen Hawkins position when he stated that we should be more frightened of capitalism than robots. https://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-says-we-should-be-more-frightened-of-capitalism-than-robots/ https://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-says-we-should-be-... In a very efficient and automated world distributing wealth is a bigger problem than creating it.
- claydavisss 8y ago
  The fact that most pension funds are projected to be insolvent and have been in need of constant replenishment, it should be clear that money is being pulled out much faster than it is being put in. That doesn't mean productivity isn't working...it just means the unions negotiate faster and better than the gains can be delivered.
Barrin92 8y ago
Firefighters also risk their lives on their job and face health risks that relatively few people are willing to take on, to protect their communities. I think it is not right at all to treat this like just another job. The social value of firefighters is unquestionably high and vital. Not sure this can be said about everybody else who takes home cozy pensions.
- yborg 8y ago
  In most suburban communities, firefighters' main risk is obesity from sitting around the fire station eating all day. In my town of 80K people there are an average of 2-3 structure fires a year for the 120 strong fire department to deal with. The majority of their calls are EMS calls.
- randysavage 8y ago
  > face health risks that relatively few people are willing to take on My perception of this (not a firefighter, just have a few friends that are), is that you need to know someone, usually close family, to even have a shot at getting in. Have had other friends give up after years pursuing fire jobs, because it is difficult to break into. Those who made it in had parents in the FD.
ataturk 8y ago
I doubt that the lavish benes will last much longer. Every municipality in the US is straining under the weight of promises made to retirees. A lot of those promises will have to be broken as a mathematical certainty (e.g. they can't raise taxes to 100% of income). It's dead, Jim.

maxxxxx 8y ago

I talked to someone working in a crime lab a while ago. She makes 100k+ and will be able to retire at 50 with 80% of income. Pretty sweet gig!

claydavisss 8y ago
For bonus points these people typically take on an "act two" career while continuing to pile up the pension benefits. Great example of this - spoke last year to a retired San Jose cop who now works as head of security for a San Jose school district. Public employees have thought strategically about retirement. Tech workers haven't. In twenty years this will be a big deal, particularly for techies in expensive metros who never even got as far as building up equity in a home.
- yborg 8y ago
  >Public employees have thought strategically about retirement Public sector employees have unions, which thought strategically about retirement. Tech workers don't, by and large, because we are too smart to fall for the union meme and will all retire early by virtue of our elite skills, not some kind of sinecure. Blue collar private industry workers once had solid pension plans as well, which died along with union membership. The reason that public sector unions survive is because their membership is paid by property taxes, and don't directly affect a corporate bottom line. The likes of the firefighter and police unions are also protected by the general "patriotism" umbrella, even the most conservative anti-labor constituency will avoid criticizing public safety workers.
  - claydavisss 8y ago
    Techies tend to fare comparatively better than their peers early on - most programmers in SF aged 27 are probably out-earning their peers from college. From this stems the notion that techies do not need organization. We'll see what happens in twenty years - my guess is programmer wages will be severely depressed by the older generation that can't stop working and will accept a lower "survival" wage.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      "We'll see what happens in twenty years - my guess is programmer wages will be severely depressed by the older generation that can't stop working and will accept a lower "survival" wage. " It will be interesting. You already have that weird curve where people start pretty high, climb some more for the next 10 years and then either stagnate or often go down in salary. I don't know of any other profession where you often make less the more experience you have.

hutzlibu 8y ago

Well, it is not everywhere as good as this. But I would add, that compared to a tech workers, firefighters risk their life at work. And exposition to toxic gases, etc. But I assume that the pension compensation might be from a time when protection equipmemt was less sophisticated..

maxxxxx 8y ago
Don't forget that fire departments (like police and military) have a lot of administrative positions that never encounter a dangerous situation and still get the same pensions.
- claydavisss 8y ago
  Firefighters who become officers earn higher pay in supervisory roles, so their pensions are even better than non-officers who will tend to encounter the most danger.
DenisM 8y ago
Pizza delivery workers risk their lives more than firefighters: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_minute/2003/10/smoke_and_mirrors.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/hey_wait_a_m...
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  Well, I guess nobody ever said, life is fair ... But it would be actually nice, if we can arrange things a bit more adequately..

krrrh 8y ago

I don’t know if it’s true everywhere, but since firefighters work on call, they are usually on a days-on/days-off schedule. It’s not at all uncommon for them to have a side-hustle working as a tradesman on their days off, and there’s no reason that couldn’t include programming.

fjsolwmv 8y ago

Retirement age is increasing, pensions are becoming more rare. Only organizations with overpowerful unions (public transit and police in various places) have these absurd pensions.

village-idiot 8y ago

If the elderly are active, they might have to go back to work as pensions become insolvent under the weight of unexpected life expectancy changes. On the flip side, this would have a devastating impact on the young while the elderly are transitioning back to work, as the sudden glut of experienced workers would depress wages and demand for inexperienced younger hands.

dba7dba 8y ago

Yes, a career as a firefighter is a great one, only if you can get into it somehow. Those in the know already know this and actively try to channel their sons/nephews/friends into firefighting jobs. 1. Los Angeles Times recently did some reporting on Los Angeles Fire Department. Turns out many of the new hires are sons/nephews/friends of active firefighters. And application process included no public access, like no online application process. So when this was fist reported, LAFD did do online application process, but it was available only for an hour or so. Again, you couldn't have known this unless you had insider connection. And I heard through friend of friend with connections in LA City. There are Los Angeles Firefighters who collect Disability Pay ON TOP of regular pay after going through some major fire incident. They can claim trauma of the major fire is hardship enough so while they work regular hours and collect regular pay, they can also receive Disability pay. 2. And then there's articles like this: "Battling treacherous office chairs and aching backs, aging cops and firefighters miss years of work and collect twice the pay" http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drop-20180203-htmlstory.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-drop-20180203-... excerpt When Capt. Tia Morris turned 50, after about three decades in the Los Angeles Police Department, she became eligible to retire with nearly 90% of her salary. But like many cops and firefighters in her position, the decision to keep working was a financial no-brainer, thanks to a program that allowed her to nearly double her pay by keeping her salary while also collecting her pension. A month after Morris entered the program, her husband, a detective, joined too. Their combined income for four years in the Deferred Retirement Option Plan was just shy of $2 million, city payroll records show. But the city didn’t benefit much from the Morrises’ experience: They both filed claims for carpal tunnel syndrome and other cumulative ailments about halfway through the program. She spent nearly two years on disability and sick leave; he missed more than two years, according to a Times analysis of city payroll data. We are all screwed, except for those on PUBLIC pensions.

kartan 8y ago

> How can retirement funds survive people working for thirty years and collecting benefits for forty? One part of the answer is productivity. (https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm) You need more production to fulfil the needs of the non-working elders. You can achieve that by increasing the number of workers (producers), or by increasing the amount produced by unit (productivity). But then the problem is how to distribute the result. This was Stephen Hawkins position when he stated that we should be more frightened of capitalism than robots. https://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-says-we-should-be-more-frightened-of-capitalism-than-robots/ https://www.cnet.com/news/stephen-hawking-says-we-should-be-... In a very efficient and automated world distributing wealth is a bigger problem than creating it.

claydavisss 8y ago
The fact that most pension funds are projected to be insolvent and have been in need of constant replenishment, it should be clear that money is being pulled out much faster than it is being put in. That doesn't mean productivity isn't working...it just means the unions negotiate faster and better than the gains can be delivered.

Barrin92 8y ago

Firefighters also risk their lives on their job and face health risks that relatively few people are willing to take on, to protect their communities. I think it is not right at all to treat this like just another job. The social value of firefighters is unquestionably high and vital. Not sure this can be said about everybody else who takes home cozy pensions.

yborg 8y ago
In most suburban communities, firefighters' main risk is obesity from sitting around the fire station eating all day. In my town of 80K people there are an average of 2-3 structure fires a year for the 120 strong fire department to deal with. The majority of their calls are EMS calls.
randysavage 8y ago
> face health risks that relatively few people are willing to take on My perception of this (not a firefighter, just have a few friends that are), is that you need to know someone, usually close family, to even have a shot at getting in. Have had other friends give up after years pursuing fire jobs, because it is difficult to break into. Those who made it in had parents in the FD.

ataturk 8y ago

I doubt that the lavish benes will last much longer. Every municipality in the US is straining under the weight of promises made to retirees. A lot of those promises will have to be broken as a mathematical certainty (e.g. they can't raise taxes to 100% of income). It's dead, Jim.