18 ms·

Fear the reaper: characterization and fast detection of card skimmers

150 points by godelmachine 8y ago

adam-a 8y ago
I'm curious how the detector isn't triggered by normal card readers. Surely legitimate untampered readers are reading the magnetic strip too?
- doctorless 8y ago
  They mention that if there is a tampered reader, the read is triggered twice.
doctorless 8y ago
This should be provided by ATM manufacturers along with the ATM, and part of a mandatory daily check before the machine can be used.
ChrisSD 8y ago
Do cards still use magnetic strips? I thought it was all done on the chip nowadays?
- cbhl 8y ago
  Magnetic strips are still very common in the United States.
  - Maxion 8y ago
    Magnetic strips are found on virtually all credit cards, even on EMV cards.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      Heck, virtually all cards still have embossed characters so you can take a carbon copy. That's just finally starting to go away in the past few years; magstripes will be here for a fair while longer.
      - SuperPaintMan 8y ago
        I actually had to use one of those the other day! I needed to check a guest into a hotel while the city municipality was working on the power so we were on emergency lights and no connectivity. Took a second, but that sound is just so satisfying.
      - rootusrootus 8y ago
        I'd like the card to disappear altogether. I do about half my daily transactions with NFC (Apple Pay) these days, and it's kind of irritating to have to reach into my pocket and fish out a card. Now, if Apple would allow me to nickname the damn cards so I could tell which is which, that would be grand. sigh
      - bradknowles 8y ago
        That's only true in the US. They got rid of those years ago in Europe. We are only now starting to catch up to where they were in about 1998. I know, because I moved to Europe in 1998, and I remember how huge of a change it felt like to me. I moved back to the US in 2006, and with regards to credit cards it felt like going back in time at least a couple of decades.
        gsnedders 8y ago
        Almost every card I've ever had in the UK and Sweden has had embossed characters. All eight cards I currently have (in the UK) are embossed, including those issued by app-based banks. None have ever had a carbon copy made of them.
      - Tor3 8y ago
        The so-called 'Electron' cards (e.g. VISA Electron) don't have embossed characters - just ordinary printed characters. Banks often provide these as lower cost cards or cards for children. As the main difference from 'ordinary' cards is that you can't take a carbon copy I'm not sure why they're considered more 'child safe'. Maybe there's more than that, but as far as I can tell they work for everything else - my wife got one of those from the bank.
- Covzire 8y ago
  In the US they generally have both if issued in the last few years, but many places still accept magnetic strips. I don't use an ATM often anymore, maybe once or twice a year at most, but I've yet to see an ATM that only demands the chip instead of forcing you to insert the whole card, so chip-only debit and credit cards can't come soon enough. Curious if there's an easy way to make my stripe unreadable with my most used credit card, especially for dining where your card can disappear for several minutes at a time.
  - julianwachholz 8y ago
    Revolut lets you disable the magnetic strip and other functions (e.g. contactless) of your physical card via the App.
    - Milner08 8y ago
      As do Monzo, infact the magnetic strip is disabled as default and you can only enable it for 24 hours at a time.
    - deadbunny 8y ago
      This just disables making payments via the strip. It's not actually disabling anything on the card. You can still get details by reading the mag strip.
  - stef25 8y ago
    Wouldn't a magnet destroy whatever's written on the card's strip?
  - wongarsu 8y ago
    >an ATM that only demands the chip instead of forcing you to insert the whole card Inserting the whole card is also a security measure to be able to take the card away if an incorrect pin is entered 3 times, or if the card is left in the device after leaving the ATM.
    - jessaustin 8y ago
azinman2 8y ago
I’d love to have a mini version of this that is just the size of a credit card and could fit in my wallet.
archi42 8y ago
As an anti tamper measure, the ATM will not just pull in the card and read it; instead, it's movement is somewhat randomised, as to increase the difficulty of obtaining an illicit read. (At least the ATMs in my country are said to usually do that) As a result, the ATM's read head might pass over the detection spot multiple times. Maybe you can force the measurement device to move only in one direction, but if I were to design the ATM, it would detect inconsistent, physical card movement.
- LeonM 8y ago
  > Maybe you can force the measurement device to move only in one direction, but if I were to design the ATM, it would detect inconsistent, physical card movement. That would be very prone to false positives. Weather variations (temperature, humidity), card types, dirt (grease , dust) and foreign objects (stickers on the card) etc etc would all make the card movement inconsistent.
  - archi42 8y ago
    I don't think so. If you don't know how it moves, you can not read meaningful data (if it moves forward/backward). That's the whole point of that counter measure. If they [the ATMs] do this and can read the card, then they can also check that the measured movement matches what the controller sent to the motor driver. Heck, depending on the driver they could just let it measure back EMF (e.g. some Trinamic stepper drivers can do that).
- rocqua 8y ago
  When running backwards and forwards you get the same sequence 3 times, once in reverse. It seems to me like that could be detected and reversed statistically with good odds. Especially if you take into account the 'total length' of the card swipe and have a lower bound on the distance of a jitter. (so you don't have to worry about 10 01 10 being a jitter)
- Crosseye_Jack 8y ago
  Doesn't the track data contain the card number? (Not looked into mag stripe cards in a while so my knowledge of them is rusty). If it does doesn't the card number itself contain a check digit? If so if a skimmer recorded everything it saw passing though it the data could be recalculated like how rocqua stated. Sure the data wouldn't be immediately available and require some post processing but unless the skimmer only recorded a fixed length I can see that method of protection bypassed very quickly and easily. I know your posting about the skim detection tool but it just seems to me like a bad method of trying to defeat skimmers. I would guess such systems are used for trying to detect a "Lebanese loop" which traps the card when it tries to eject.
javadocmd 8y ago
Better than hoping your customers are carrying their own detection device, build such a detection mechanism into the rear of the card slot and have it periodically "sweep" itself.
fabricexpert 8y ago
We should really add 2FA to cards. E.g. if I withdraw a large sum or make an unusual transaction prompt for a 2FA code. For small transactions it makes no sense, but for anything above a user defined limit we should have this option. e.g. I only withdraw more than £50 in unusual circumstances.
- kowdermeister 8y ago
  In my bank you can set a daily withdraw limit and if you need more, simply increase it online for a temporary time frame.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  I imagine ordinary 2FA probably wouldn't work... the timeout would have to be too long. But I don't see why 2-factor pre-authentication shouldn't work? Before purchasing, just authorize a larger charge on your card than a limit you or your bank previously set. If it works, then great. Worst case is it doesn't work (app breaks, phone out of juice, whatever), in which case you're back to the current situation.
  - peteretep 8y ago
    > I imagine ordinary 2FA probably wouldn't work. I don't know what you mean by "ordinary" 2FA, but it's pretty common in Thailand when making online payments to have an SMS sent to you, and in the UK my Amex card has been known to require SMS/email codes for online purchases.
- chupasaurus 8y ago
  My bank has a user-defined limit after which transactions must be authorized either by phone call or in web or mobile app (or by visting a bank office in person), all the ways are equal. The thing is that the lower bound for that feature is ≈$300.
- CPLX 8y ago
  Cards are 2FA already. You’re advocating for a third factor.
Tor3 8y ago
Please someone... Why on earth are there still ATMs with magnetic stripe readers in some countries? Where I travel I don't run into those anymore. Because if I did it wouldn't work - I've found that with enough magnetic stripe cards in the wallet they effectively de-magnetize each other. I currently have exactly one (very new) VISA debet card with a functioning magnetic stripe, which I use for parking only, as there are still a few very old magnetic stripe machines around. The other cards can't be read. (Someone could put a pinhole camera on the parking lot reader.. doesn't matter, as no pin is entered. Cost is up to ~a dollar or so, so they don't bother with the pin.)
gambiting 8y ago
I just don't understand why my card even has a magnetic stripe anymore. It's been years since I've seen any terminals that could actually accept it, it's all chip and pin over here. If I could get a card without the strip I'd gladly do so.
- acdha 8y ago
  The United States is still predominantly magstripe. We’ve had chip-and-no-pin for a few years but many large retailers haven’t enabled it, possibly because transactions are so much slower (usually 30-60 seconds) and less reliable.
  - tomxor 8y ago
    > possibly because transactions are so much slower (usually 30-60 seconds) I don't know the details of the technological differences in transaction communication between the two, but in the UK chip and pin is noticeably and consistently faster to perform transactions in my experience, often to the the point that it's perceptibly instant... although it has been quite some years since i've used magnetic ones so that's from memory. I suppose one way to protect yourself if you are never going to use your card in the US, is by destroying the magnetic strip (magnetically).
    - acdha 8y ago
      The slow reads are entirely a technical failure by some of the large vendors. Some systems are as fast as you describe and most of the ones which I see being that slow are much faster for NFC, so I’m pretty sure it’s just that they were rushed into profuction to meet the deadline imposed by the card vendors.
      - tomxor 8y ago
        Maybe it's just a difference in how relatively new the technology is to US retailers then, UK shops have had plenty of time to work out the kinks and learn what hardware to avoid.
Paul-ish 8y ago
It would be nice if I could clip on a thin piece of plastic/foil to my card to block out the magnetic strip if I know the device I'm inserting it into only needs the chip.
Daniel_sk 8y ago
There is a clever solution to this from a bank in Slovakia (Tatrabanka), you can use their mobile banking application to generate a one-time numerical code for the withdrawal. So you can just generate the code and enter it on any ATM that is owned by this bank. You don't need to have the card with you (and you can forward this code to your wife for example). Also 100% of cards in Europe are also protected by PIN, so simple skimmers won't work.
- eboyjr 8y ago
  Does it work without a mobile data connection? Regardless this is a great idea and I would love to know what it would take to convince other banks to do the same.
  - Daniel_sk 8y ago
    It doesn't - but usually everyone has a mobile data plan here and coverage is great, so it's not a concern. In the rare event you can use the card as backup. I wish this was some sort of standard between banks. But thankfully this is the biggest bank in the country, so their ATM is usually very close to you (there is no special hardware, it's an ordinary ATM - with just a menu option of entering the one-time code).
- tjoff 8y ago
  PIN does not protect you from skimmers... Everything you need is on the magnetic stripe, PIN is only needed if you use the chip - which an attacker obviously wouldn't. The whole concept of chip+pin is pretty pathetic considering that the magnetic stripe is still there for backwards compatibility. And now with wireless cards it is even less secure than a magnetic stripe.
  - Daniel_sk 8y ago
    Ok, I didn't know that. But I have never used the magnetic strip in Europe, I don't think anyone accepts it here. My previous bank would even issue standard debit cards without the magnetic strip. So how would you use the card without the PIN? Can you read the whole card number + expiration + CVV code and then buy something online?
gruez 8y ago
>... those that fit in the EMV slot (chip reader) and those that wiretap the physical communication line. What's the point of wiretapping the emv chip? Isn't EMV supposed to be immune to skimming?
- Crosseye_Jack 8y ago
  The full sentence is > External devices can be attached as card reader overlays, deep-inserts inside the magnetic stripe slot, those that fit in the EMV slot (chip reader) and those that wiretap the physical communication line. I believe the "those that fit into the EMV slot" and "those that wiretap the physical communication line" are two different types. A skimmer in the EMV slot can still skim the mag-stripe. Wiretapping the communication line is used when the ATM/Payment terminal uses poor security between it and what ever its connected too.
  - bradknowles 8y ago
    Except an insert into the chip reader slot isn't a full insert of the entire card, and so they're not going to get the full mag stripe. Now, if they don't need the full mag stripe, then you've got a problem. But I don't think that mechanism would work for most skimmers.
    - Crosseye_Jack 8y ago
      Some of the card dip style readers do have a full card insert. Examples would be the in shop ATMs that prevent the card from being removed (so they can query the chip).
therealmarv 8y ago
I can block the whole magnetic stripe from my smartphone app (Revolut, EU). This whole system (magnetic stripe) is flawed and totally outdated.
- nullify88 8y ago
  While you can tell revolut to block transactions that use the magnetic stripe, it doesn't physically disable the stripe, so they can still pull your data from it which maybe enough for them to carry out an attack.
cascom 8y ago
I live in the US where you essentially have no liability for fraudulent transactions (if you identify them in a reasonable amount of time) - so while it’s annoying to have to get a card reissued once every couple of years, it doesn’t seem like such a big deal
- kurthr 8y ago
  I can't recommend SMS alerts for all transactions highly enough... that way even traveling you know what went through, when, and for what amount. However, once a year seems optimistic for card replacement, if you use them at a lot of POS (gas stations). I've seen replacements at once a week (every time they filled up) and the gas station attendent doesn't care either.
  - lucb1e 8y ago
    I have this as well, but using email. They automatically sort into a folder and I can go through them later, super convenient.
swsieber 8y ago
... is there any way to destroy the mag strip a CA ed with a chip?
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patcheudor 8y ago
"The measurement card has a carefully etched set of traces in the magnetic stripe, (aligning with each of the three data tracks). When a read head contacts the card it bridges a pair of electrical traces and completes a circuit back to the microcontroller." This seems to me to be a detective control which relies a bit too heavily on obscurity, obscurity which is now blown. Having knowledge of how this works, ATM skimming gangs who's devices might be found by local authorities with this device can now take the active counter-measure of placing a piece of Kapton tape over the read-head.
- kw71 8y ago
  Or maybe they can monitor the wires on the legitimate read head instead. This was possible on a formerly common fuel dispenser in the USA
ChuckMcM 8y ago
This is very cool. Basically a 'fake' card that can detect when it passes by more than one 'read' head in the machine. It should be possible to build this into a credit card sized device that you could just swipe with and have it illuminate a red or green LED when it detects a skimmer.
- godelmachine 8y ago
  Well, you have a point there. But don't you think the "credit card sized device" will again be used for fraudulent purposes? Maybe to trace EM emissions or something else?
  - ChuckMcM 8y ago
    Perhaps, but the gist of the article is that you basically won't be able to detect a skimmer most of the time. But their technique does detect skimmers (all the time when they tested it). What I was wondering was if you could carry something in your wallet to easily check for skimmers. A CC sized think PCB with a thin package on it would be idea, and then a paper overlay to create uniform thickness.
    - godelmachine 8y ago
      >> A paper overlay to create uniform thickness Might I ask what purpose would it serve?
      - ChuckMcM 8y ago
        Some places have automated rollers that move the card in and out of the machine. I would not want to lose my skimmer detector by having it getting hung up inside the machine.
        godelmachine 8y ago
        Thanks for explaining your thoughts :)
gruez 8y ago
>There’s one thing that’s fundamental to overlay and deep-insert skimmers – they have to actually read your card data! This requires a read head pressed against the magnetic track on the card with a spring mechanism. Furthermore, the head must be a conductor and in practice seems to always be metallic. next up: skimmers with "undetectable" read heads (lined with plastic) I've seen cashiers sandwich cards between pieces of paper to get problematic cards to read, which makes think that while the read head must be metal, it doesn't have to be in contact with the card to work.
ahes 8y ago
Poland solved this problem pretty neat. I don't even remember using my credit card with ATM. You open your mobile bank app, click BLIK icon and a 6-digit code is generated. You enter the code in ATM and you choose amount to withdraw. You accept the amount on your mobile phone and money comes out. This is how it looks: https://www.mbank.pl/indywidualny/uslugi/uslugi/blik/ https://www.mbank.pl/indywidualny/uslugi/uslugi/blik/
- gboudrias 8y ago
  That's very clever but honestly, just removing the magnetic strip seems like a really obvious first step. I know for a fact they flag magnetic strip usage on ATMs for credit cards anyway. (Then again, could be some sort of honeypot.)
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150 points by godelmachine 8y ago

I'm curious how the detector isn't triggered by normal card readers. Surely legitimate untampered readers are reading the magnetic strip too?

doctorless 8y ago
They mention that if there is a tampered reader, the read is triggered twice.

doctorless 8y ago

This should be provided by ATM manufacturers along with the ATM, and part of a mandatory daily check before the machine can be used.

ChrisSD 8y ago

Do cards still use magnetic strips? I thought it was all done on the chip nowadays?

cbhl 8y ago
Magnetic strips are still very common in the United States.
- Maxion 8y ago
  Magnetic strips are found on virtually all credit cards, even on EMV cards.
  - gsnedders 8y ago
    Heck, virtually all cards still have embossed characters so you can take a carbon copy. That's just finally starting to go away in the past few years; magstripes will be here for a fair while longer.
    - SuperPaintMan 8y ago
      I actually had to use one of those the other day! I needed to check a guest into a hotel while the city municipality was working on the power so we were on emergency lights and no connectivity. Took a second, but that sound is just so satisfying.
    - rootusrootus 8y ago
      I'd like the card to disappear altogether. I do about half my daily transactions with NFC (Apple Pay) these days, and it's kind of irritating to have to reach into my pocket and fish out a card. Now, if Apple would allow me to nickname the damn cards so I could tell which is which, that would be grand. sigh
    - bradknowles 8y ago
      That's only true in the US. They got rid of those years ago in Europe. We are only now starting to catch up to where they were in about 1998. I know, because I moved to Europe in 1998, and I remember how huge of a change it felt like to me. I moved back to the US in 2006, and with regards to credit cards it felt like going back in time at least a couple of decades.
      - gsnedders 8y ago
        Almost every card I've ever had in the UK and Sweden has had embossed characters. All eight cards I currently have (in the UK) are embossed, including those issued by app-based banks. None have ever had a carbon copy made of them.
    - Tor3 8y ago
      The so-called 'Electron' cards (e.g. VISA Electron) don't have embossed characters - just ordinary printed characters. Banks often provide these as lower cost cards or cards for children. As the main difference from 'ordinary' cards is that you can't take a carbon copy I'm not sure why they're considered more 'child safe'. Maybe there's more than that, but as far as I can tell they work for everything else - my wife got one of those from the bank.
Covzire 8y ago
In the US they generally have both if issued in the last few years, but many places still accept magnetic strips. I don't use an ATM often anymore, maybe once or twice a year at most, but I've yet to see an ATM that only demands the chip instead of forcing you to insert the whole card, so chip-only debit and credit cards can't come soon enough. Curious if there's an easy way to make my stripe unreadable with my most used credit card, especially for dining where your card can disappear for several minutes at a time.
- julianwachholz 8y ago
  Revolut lets you disable the magnetic strip and other functions (e.g. contactless) of your physical card via the App.
  - Milner08 8y ago
    As do Monzo, infact the magnetic strip is disabled as default and you can only enable it for 24 hours at a time.
  - deadbunny 8y ago
    This just disables making payments via the strip. It's not actually disabling anything on the card. You can still get details by reading the mag strip.
- stef25 8y ago
  Wouldn't a magnet destroy whatever's written on the card's strip?
- wongarsu 8y ago
  >an ATM that only demands the chip instead of forcing you to insert the whole card Inserting the whole card is also a security measure to be able to take the card away if an incorrect pin is entered 3 times, or if the card is left in the device after leaving the ATM.
  - jessaustin 8y ago

azinman2 8y ago

I’d love to have a mini version of this that is just the size of a credit card and could fit in my wallet.

archi42 8y ago

As an anti tamper measure, the ATM will not just pull in the card and read it; instead, it's movement is somewhat randomised, as to increase the difficulty of obtaining an illicit read. (At least the ATMs in my country are said to usually do that) As a result, the ATM's read head might pass over the detection spot multiple times. Maybe you can force the measurement device to move only in one direction, but if I were to design the ATM, it would detect inconsistent, physical card movement.

LeonM 8y ago
> Maybe you can force the measurement device to move only in one direction, but if I were to design the ATM, it would detect inconsistent, physical card movement. That would be very prone to false positives. Weather variations (temperature, humidity), card types, dirt (grease , dust) and foreign objects (stickers on the card) etc etc would all make the card movement inconsistent.
- archi42 8y ago
  I don't think so. If you don't know how it moves, you can not read meaningful data (if it moves forward/backward). That's the whole point of that counter measure. If they [the ATMs] do this and can read the card, then they can also check that the measured movement matches what the controller sent to the motor driver. Heck, depending on the driver they could just let it measure back EMF (e.g. some Trinamic stepper drivers can do that).
rocqua 8y ago
When running backwards and forwards you get the same sequence 3 times, once in reverse. It seems to me like that could be detected and reversed statistically with good odds. Especially if you take into account the 'total length' of the card swipe and have a lower bound on the distance of a jitter. (so you don't have to worry about 10 01 10 being a jitter)
Crosseye_Jack 8y ago
Doesn't the track data contain the card number? (Not looked into mag stripe cards in a while so my knowledge of them is rusty). If it does doesn't the card number itself contain a check digit? If so if a skimmer recorded everything it saw passing though it the data could be recalculated like how rocqua stated. Sure the data wouldn't be immediately available and require some post processing but unless the skimmer only recorded a fixed length I can see that method of protection bypassed very quickly and easily. I know your posting about the skim detection tool but it just seems to me like a bad method of trying to defeat skimmers. I would guess such systems are used for trying to detect a "Lebanese loop" which traps the card when it tries to eject.

javadocmd 8y ago

Better than hoping your customers are carrying their own detection device, build such a detection mechanism into the rear of the card slot and have it periodically "sweep" itself.

fabricexpert 8y ago

We should really add 2FA to cards. E.g. if I withdraw a large sum or make an unusual transaction prompt for a 2FA code. For small transactions it makes no sense, but for anything above a user defined limit we should have this option. e.g. I only withdraw more than £50 in unusual circumstances.

kowdermeister 8y ago
In my bank you can set a daily withdraw limit and if you need more, simply increase it online for a temporary time frame.
mehrdadn 8y ago
I imagine ordinary 2FA probably wouldn't work... the timeout would have to be too long. But I don't see why 2-factor pre-authentication shouldn't work? Before purchasing, just authorize a larger charge on your card than a limit you or your bank previously set. If it works, then great. Worst case is it doesn't work (app breaks, phone out of juice, whatever), in which case you're back to the current situation.
- peteretep 8y ago
  > I imagine ordinary 2FA probably wouldn't work. I don't know what you mean by "ordinary" 2FA, but it's pretty common in Thailand when making online payments to have an SMS sent to you, and in the UK my Amex card has been known to require SMS/email codes for online purchases.
chupasaurus 8y ago
My bank has a user-defined limit after which transactions must be authorized either by phone call or in web or mobile app (or by visting a bank office in person), all the ways are equal. The thing is that the lower bound for that feature is ≈$300.
CPLX 8y ago
Cards are 2FA already. You’re advocating for a third factor.

Tor3 8y ago

Please someone... Why on earth are there still ATMs with magnetic stripe readers in some countries? Where I travel I don't run into those anymore. Because if I did it wouldn't work - I've found that with enough magnetic stripe cards in the wallet they effectively de-magnetize each other. I currently have exactly one (very new) VISA debet card with a functioning magnetic stripe, which I use for parking only, as there are still a few very old magnetic stripe machines around. The other cards can't be read. (Someone could put a pinhole camera on the parking lot reader.. doesn't matter, as no pin is entered. Cost is up to ~a dollar or so, so they don't bother with the pin.)

gambiting 8y ago

I just don't understand why my card even has a magnetic stripe anymore. It's been years since I've seen any terminals that could actually accept it, it's all chip and pin over here. If I could get a card without the strip I'd gladly do so.

acdha 8y ago
The United States is still predominantly magstripe. We’ve had chip-and-no-pin for a few years but many large retailers haven’t enabled it, possibly because transactions are so much slower (usually 30-60 seconds) and less reliable.
- tomxor 8y ago
  > possibly because transactions are so much slower (usually 30-60 seconds) I don't know the details of the technological differences in transaction communication between the two, but in the UK chip and pin is noticeably and consistently faster to perform transactions in my experience, often to the the point that it's perceptibly instant... although it has been quite some years since i've used magnetic ones so that's from memory. I suppose one way to protect yourself if you are never going to use your card in the US, is by destroying the magnetic strip (magnetically).
  - acdha 8y ago
    The slow reads are entirely a technical failure by some of the large vendors. Some systems are as fast as you describe and most of the ones which I see being that slow are much faster for NFC, so I’m pretty sure it’s just that they were rushed into profuction to meet the deadline imposed by the card vendors.
    - tomxor 8y ago
      Maybe it's just a difference in how relatively new the technology is to US retailers then, UK shops have had plenty of time to work out the kinks and learn what hardware to avoid.

Paul-ish 8y ago

It would be nice if I could clip on a thin piece of plastic/foil to my card to block out the magnetic strip if I know the device I'm inserting it into only needs the chip.

Daniel_sk 8y ago

There is a clever solution to this from a bank in Slovakia (Tatrabanka), you can use their mobile banking application to generate a one-time numerical code for the withdrawal. So you can just generate the code and enter it on any ATM that is owned by this bank. You don't need to have the card with you (and you can forward this code to your wife for example). Also 100% of cards in Europe are also protected by PIN, so simple skimmers won't work.

eboyjr 8y ago
Does it work without a mobile data connection? Regardless this is a great idea and I would love to know what it would take to convince other banks to do the same.
- Daniel_sk 8y ago
  It doesn't - but usually everyone has a mobile data plan here and coverage is great, so it's not a concern. In the rare event you can use the card as backup. I wish this was some sort of standard between banks. But thankfully this is the biggest bank in the country, so their ATM is usually very close to you (there is no special hardware, it's an ordinary ATM - with just a menu option of entering the one-time code).
tjoff 8y ago
PIN does not protect you from skimmers... Everything you need is on the magnetic stripe, PIN is only needed if you use the chip - which an attacker obviously wouldn't. The whole concept of chip+pin is pretty pathetic considering that the magnetic stripe is still there for backwards compatibility. And now with wireless cards it is even less secure than a magnetic stripe.
- Daniel_sk 8y ago
  Ok, I didn't know that. But I have never used the magnetic strip in Europe, I don't think anyone accepts it here. My previous bank would even issue standard debit cards without the magnetic strip. So how would you use the card without the PIN? Can you read the whole card number + expiration + CVV code and then buy something online?

gruez 8y ago

>... those that fit in the EMV slot (chip reader) and those that wiretap the physical communication line. What's the point of wiretapping the emv chip? Isn't EMV supposed to be immune to skimming?

Crosseye_Jack 8y ago
The full sentence is > External devices can be attached as card reader overlays, deep-inserts inside the magnetic stripe slot, those that fit in the EMV slot (chip reader) and those that wiretap the physical communication line. I believe the "those that fit into the EMV slot" and "those that wiretap the physical communication line" are two different types. A skimmer in the EMV slot can still skim the mag-stripe. Wiretapping the communication line is used when the ATM/Payment terminal uses poor security between it and what ever its connected too.
- bradknowles 8y ago
  Except an insert into the chip reader slot isn't a full insert of the entire card, and so they're not going to get the full mag stripe. Now, if they don't need the full mag stripe, then you've got a problem. But I don't think that mechanism would work for most skimmers.
  - Crosseye_Jack 8y ago
    Some of the card dip style readers do have a full card insert. Examples would be the in shop ATMs that prevent the card from being removed (so they can query the chip).

therealmarv 8y ago

I can block the whole magnetic stripe from my smartphone app (Revolut, EU). This whole system (magnetic stripe) is flawed and totally outdated.

nullify88 8y ago
While you can tell revolut to block transactions that use the magnetic stripe, it doesn't physically disable the stripe, so they can still pull your data from it which maybe enough for them to carry out an attack.

cascom 8y ago

I live in the US where you essentially have no liability for fraudulent transactions (if you identify them in a reasonable amount of time) - so while it’s annoying to have to get a card reissued once every couple of years, it doesn’t seem like such a big deal

kurthr 8y ago
I can't recommend SMS alerts for all transactions highly enough... that way even traveling you know what went through, when, and for what amount. However, once a year seems optimistic for card replacement, if you use them at a lot of POS (gas stations). I've seen replacements at once a week (every time they filled up) and the gas station attendent doesn't care either.
- lucb1e 8y ago
  I have this as well, but using email. They automatically sort into a folder and I can go through them later, super convenient.

swsieber 8y ago

... is there any way to destroy the mag strip a CA ed with a chip?

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patcheudor 8y ago

"The measurement card has a carefully etched set of traces in the magnetic stripe, (aligning with each of the three data tracks). When a read head contacts the card it bridges a pair of electrical traces and completes a circuit back to the microcontroller." This seems to me to be a detective control which relies a bit too heavily on obscurity, obscurity which is now blown. Having knowledge of how this works, ATM skimming gangs who's devices might be found by local authorities with this device can now take the active counter-measure of placing a piece of Kapton tape over the read-head.

kw71 8y ago
Or maybe they can monitor the wires on the legitimate read head instead. This was possible on a formerly common fuel dispenser in the USA

ChuckMcM 8y ago

This is very cool. Basically a 'fake' card that can detect when it passes by more than one 'read' head in the machine. It should be possible to build this into a credit card sized device that you could just swipe with and have it illuminate a red or green LED when it detects a skimmer.

godelmachine 8y ago
Well, you have a point there. But don't you think the "credit card sized device" will again be used for fraudulent purposes? Maybe to trace EM emissions or something else?
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  Perhaps, but the gist of the article is that you basically won't be able to detect a skimmer most of the time. But their technique does detect skimmers (all the time when they tested it). What I was wondering was if you could carry something in your wallet to easily check for skimmers. A CC sized think PCB with a thin package on it would be idea, and then a paper overlay to create uniform thickness.
  - godelmachine 8y ago
    >> A paper overlay to create uniform thickness Might I ask what purpose would it serve?
    - ChuckMcM 8y ago
      Some places have automated rollers that move the card in and out of the machine. I would not want to lose my skimmer detector by having it getting hung up inside the machine.
      - godelmachine 8y ago
        Thanks for explaining your thoughts :)

gruez 8y ago

>There’s one thing that’s fundamental to overlay and deep-insert skimmers – they have to actually read your card data! This requires a read head pressed against the magnetic track on the card with a spring mechanism. Furthermore, the head must be a conductor and in practice seems to always be metallic. next up: skimmers with "undetectable" read heads (lined with plastic) I've seen cashiers sandwich cards between pieces of paper to get problematic cards to read, which makes think that while the read head must be metal, it doesn't have to be in contact with the card to work.

ahes 8y ago

Poland solved this problem pretty neat. I don't even remember using my credit card with ATM. You open your mobile bank app, click BLIK icon and a 6-digit code is generated. You enter the code in ATM and you choose amount to withdraw. You accept the amount on your mobile phone and money comes out. This is how it looks: https://www.mbank.pl/indywidualny/uslugi/uslugi/blik/ https://www.mbank.pl/indywidualny/uslugi/uslugi/blik/

gboudrias 8y ago
That's very clever but honestly, just removing the magnetic strip seems like a really obvious first step. I know for a fact they flag magnetic strip usage on ATMs for credit cards anyway. (Then again, could be some sort of honeypot.)
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MIKEQ50 8y ago

Hi, my wife and I got served by May 5th, 2017 and were at a complete loss of where to go from there. We were in Oklahoma and the creditor is Capital One Bank going through Machol & Johannes for a total of $8,175. My wife and I couldn’t afford to pay all of that or we would have. It shows the date issued on the summons as March 17th so why am I just now getting it on May 1st? I asked. I don’t want to type out some long sad story, we just have a daughter that will be two on the 31st of May 2017, so we had been focused on making sure she had everything needed and haven’t been able to pay. In my frustrated condition I heard two people discussing in a mall about how a hacker known as HACKWEST assisted them in fixing there credit score, eliminating their credit profile in court, I then walked to them and told them my own story, they accepted in giving me the contacts of HACKWEST for free, I immediately contacted HACKWEST and got a swift response, I shared my predicaments with him and he asked of some information which I gave out and made some financial commitment, after 7days I got a good tradeline and was able to get a better apartment, had excess to the extent I was able to payoff my loans and at sametime celebrate my child’s birthday. You can contact HACKWEST via Email: HACKWEST@WRITEME.COM cell: +1 424 307 2638. Thank me later.

recastrosugar1 8y ago

My name is Ronnie, working with DERRICK REPAIR was an experience because I did not know much about credit repair and he made me understand what was affecting my scores and how he would fix it. I lost 32 points on my score for a large credit card debt, even though I paid it in full and 100 points because of an error courtesy of the bank. Background: I have over $50,000 of available credit on my report and rarely spent more than $1500 a month, which I always pay in full, so my normal credit utilization is 1%. In December 2017 I had roughly $5000 worth of work done on my house and I paid for it with a credit card (to get $5000 worth of rewards!). When I got the credit card bill I paid it in full. About a week later I got notification that my credit score had dropped 32 points - my credit utilization ratio jumped from 1% to 9%, and even though it’s still less than 10% utilization and considered “excellent”, my score took a hit. 2 months passed and it was never corrected. My credit score dropped over 100 points again because of an error courtesy of the bank. They reported a late house payment on a closed and settled mortgage. The bank says there’s nothing they can do to fix it. Assholes. However I needed to start up my new business and therefore needs my credit in perfect shape to qualify for a huge loan. I mentioned it to my cousin who had his credit fixed lately by a special credit expert DERRICK REPAIR. He gave me his contact (DERRICKREPAIR@TECHIE.COM, +1 830 308 7397) and I sent him a text. He carefully explained the process and I obliged. He tactfully corrected the problem, deleted other negative info on my report and verified the correction with the 3 credit bureaus and restored my score to 790 within 11 days.

kimmill332 8y ago

If you are looking for help to fix your credit, contact DERRICKREPAIR@TECHIE.COM he will surely come through for you and I must confess I owe DERRICK REPAIR everything because he gave me all I have ever hoped for. After having numerous faulty experiences with credit repair companies and being burnt by fake hackers, I figured out that the credit score they told me they boosted was actually false and the negatives items on my report wasn’t cleared, I was so hurt and back on all my payments then I was forced to tell my friend Carol what was going on. Thank you Carol for having me reach DERRICK REPAIR, you’re an Angel. I contacted DERRICK via his email above and told him exactly what I want him to do for me, to cut the long story short DERRICK raised my score to the high 700s, deleted negative items and replacing them with marvelous tradelines which credit repair companies could not do. After 9 working days DERRICK texted that the job is done which he showed me proof and I confirmed the results with my credit monitoring app before I making the rest payment. I strongly recommend him to you all in need of such service. You can also reach him via text +1 830 308 7397 I think that would also help you get his attention. He can fix a Chex system, DUI report and also clears credit card debts.