4 ms·

Please don't use cmake, the dependency chain it pulls in on a bare machine is massive.

by nwmcsween 8y ago

nerdponx 8y ago
What's wrong with dependencies?
- gumby 8y ago
  Every dependency increases the fragility of your program. What if you update the dependency and it breaks your program? What if you have two programs dependent on the same library -- but different versions? This just scratches at the surface of the problem. Sometimes the risk is worth it: you need some complex functionality not worth writing yourself. In that case it's a good thing. But understand that it's a tradeoff.
  - hugofirth 8y ago
    This is a very dangerous argument for anything but the most domain specific or simple logic. Every time I roll something non trivial rather than using the widely testing and "battle hardened" alternative that increases the fragility of my program. There are times when it makes sense, but those are the special cases, and carry a cost which should be considered.
  - jcelerier 8y ago
    > you need some complex functionality not worth writing yourself. well, CMake supports downloading stuff from the internet - git repositories, etc. If you want to be able to download from https:// https:// addresses I sure hope that you won't reimplement it yourself.
- nwmcsween 8y ago
  cmake actually has an issue where a dependency it has depends on cmake, worlds of fun.
tom_ 8y ago
What does it require over and above what you'd need for development anyway? The vagrant provision script for my Ubuntu VM installs this lot before grabbing the CMake source and building it: apt-get -y install subversion git make gcc g++ subversion emacs git-gui zip gksu synaptic gdb valgrind I'm pretty sure that not all of these are actually required. You do need gcc and g++, I'm sure, but I expect Valgrind and GDB are strictly optional...
- nwmcsween 8y ago
  Gentoo lists: app-crypt/rhash >=app-arch/libarchive-3.0.0:= >=dev-libs/expat-2.0.1 >=dev-libs/libuv-1.10.0:= >=net-misc/curl-7.21.5[ssl] sys-libs/zlib virtual/pkgconfig emacs? ( virtual/emacs ) system-jsoncpp? ( >=dev-libs/jsoncpp-0.6.0_rc2:0= ) of which most have dependencies as well which is honestly ridiculous for a build system.
  - pedrocr 8y ago
    Those look like exactly the kinds of dependencies I'd go for if I needed to write a new C build system. Nothing ridiculous about them.
    - quietbritishjim 8y ago
      The emacs dependency is odd to say the least, but I'm pretty sure CMake doesn't actually depend on it. I don't know much about Gentoo but perhaps the question mark after it means it's just a suggested dependency.
      - nwmcsween 8y ago
        Anything dep a ? is optional
      - rleigh 8y ago
        It will be the cmake-mode for editing CMakeLists.txt files.
  - 8y ago
gumby 8y ago
I hate and am deeply suspicious of dependencies but I just did 'brew deps cmake' on my machine and it printed nothing. Some CMakefiles have many and gratuitous dependencies but that's the fault of those authors.
gjasny 8y ago
If dependencies are a problem, you could always use the pre-compiled version from cmake.org. It uses the bundled 3rd party libs. I prefer software that uses mature 3rd party libs over NIH driven rewrites. Please also keep in mind that CMake is available for many platforms sone with fading user base like AIX, HPUX, or Solaris. Using a well tested event library like libuv helps to keep those supported.
ridiculous_fish 8y ago
What do you advise using instead?
- ur-whale 8y ago
  There is the problem indeed. In 2018, the age-old problem of the build system remains entirely unsolved. CMake is terrible, but so are all the others. I believe the CS community as a whole has gravely under-estimated how hard the build system problem actually is. We're only starting to recognize this.
- nwmcsween 8y ago
  Ideally there would be something like premake but with a smaller and more focused DSL.
jcelerier 8y ago
dunno on which system you are, here is what it pulls on my system : curl libarchive shared-mime-info jsoncpp libuv rhash and you can always download a prebuilt static binary from their website: https://cmake.org/files/v3.12/cmake-3.12.1-Linux-x86_64.tar.gz https://cmake.org/files/v3.12/cmake-3.12.1-Linux-x86_64.tar....

Please don't use cmake, the dependency chain it pulls in on a bare machine is massive.

nerdponx 8y ago

What's wrong with dependencies?

gumby 8y ago
Every dependency increases the fragility of your program. What if you update the dependency and it breaks your program? What if you have two programs dependent on the same library -- but different versions? This just scratches at the surface of the problem. Sometimes the risk is worth it: you need some complex functionality not worth writing yourself. In that case it's a good thing. But understand that it's a tradeoff.
- hugofirth 8y ago
  This is a very dangerous argument for anything but the most domain specific or simple logic. Every time I roll something non trivial rather than using the widely testing and "battle hardened" alternative that increases the fragility of my program. There are times when it makes sense, but those are the special cases, and carry a cost which should be considered.
- jcelerier 8y ago
  > you need some complex functionality not worth writing yourself. well, CMake supports downloading stuff from the internet - git repositories, etc. If you want to be able to download from https:// https:// addresses I sure hope that you won't reimplement it yourself.
nwmcsween 8y ago
cmake actually has an issue where a dependency it has depends on cmake, worlds of fun.

tom_ 8y ago

What does it require over and above what you'd need for development anyway? The vagrant provision script for my Ubuntu VM installs this lot before grabbing the CMake source and building it: apt-get -y install subversion git make gcc g++ subversion emacs git-gui zip gksu synaptic gdb valgrind I'm pretty sure that not all of these are actually required. You do need gcc and g++, I'm sure, but I expect Valgrind and GDB are strictly optional...

nwmcsween 8y ago
Gentoo lists: app-crypt/rhash >=app-arch/libarchive-3.0.0:= >=dev-libs/expat-2.0.1 >=dev-libs/libuv-1.10.0:= >=net-misc/curl-7.21.5[ssl] sys-libs/zlib virtual/pkgconfig emacs? ( virtual/emacs ) system-jsoncpp? ( >=dev-libs/jsoncpp-0.6.0_rc2:0= ) of which most have dependencies as well which is honestly ridiculous for a build system.
- pedrocr 8y ago
  Those look like exactly the kinds of dependencies I'd go for if I needed to write a new C build system. Nothing ridiculous about them.
  - quietbritishjim 8y ago
    The emacs dependency is odd to say the least, but I'm pretty sure CMake doesn't actually depend on it. I don't know much about Gentoo but perhaps the question mark after it means it's just a suggested dependency.
    - nwmcsween 8y ago
      Anything dep a ? is optional
    - rleigh 8y ago
      It will be the cmake-mode for editing CMakeLists.txt files.
- 8y ago

gumby 8y ago

I hate and am deeply suspicious of dependencies but I just did 'brew deps cmake' on my machine and it printed nothing. Some CMakefiles have many and gratuitous dependencies but that's the fault of those authors.

gjasny 8y ago

If dependencies are a problem, you could always use the pre-compiled version from cmake.org. It uses the bundled 3rd party libs. I prefer software that uses mature 3rd party libs over NIH driven rewrites. Please also keep in mind that CMake is available for many platforms sone with fading user base like AIX, HPUX, or Solaris. Using a well tested event library like libuv helps to keep those supported.

ridiculous_fish 8y ago

What do you advise using instead?

ur-whale 8y ago
There is the problem indeed. In 2018, the age-old problem of the build system remains entirely unsolved. CMake is terrible, but so are all the others. I believe the CS community as a whole has gravely under-estimated how hard the build system problem actually is. We're only starting to recognize this.
nwmcsween 8y ago
Ideally there would be something like premake but with a smaller and more focused DSL.

jcelerier 8y ago

dunno on which system you are, here is what it pulls on my system : curl libarchive shared-mime-info jsoncpp libuv rhash and you can always download a prebuilt static binary from their website: https://cmake.org/files/v3.12/cmake-3.12.1-Linux-x86_64.tar.gz https://cmake.org/files/v3.12/cmake-3.12.1-Linux-x86_64.tar....