3 ms·

It's about how ORMs result in less clean code by forcing a clunky generic OOP paradigm on any DB interaction. You may not agree with this argument, but it is an

It's about how ORMs result in less clean code by forcing a clunky generic OOP paradigm on any DB interaction. You may not agree with this argument, but it is an argument.

zzzeek 8y ago
one lazy sentence with no examples does not allow you to declare "Let’s dispel with the myth that ORMs make code cleaner. ". Make an argument, show examples, be specific. For example. I don't like Python's asyncio. I don't just blog, "can we just dispel with this myth that asyncio makes code faster?" and just bask in my upmods. I made a very well researched and tested argument and spent many hours making sure, if I was going to make a statement like "technology X that tens of thousands of you use every day is a myth", or more accurately "not quite as worthwhile as you might think", I took the time to thoroughly illustrate this: http://techspot.zzzeek.org/2015/02/15/asynchronous-python-and-databases/ http://techspot.zzzeek.org/2015/02/15/asynchronous-python-an... Whether or not people agree with what I wrote (though nobody seemed to really disagree much), I'm not just trolling for upmods, I'm making a tangible contribution to the subject. What this person posted is basically non-debatable because no debatable points were made. Those of us with a lot of time invested in DSLs and ORMs would prefer a real discussion with real things we can debate, not just who can rant more loudly. I can debate this blog post very simply that there's tens of thousands of developers who use DSLs and ORMs to great success every day and the burden of proof is on this poster to prove them all wrong. This is just a very low quality rant that appeals to base cheerleading instincts from whoever happens to agree with this person already, and I will choose the vast community of working software over this post in order to determine what exactly is a "myth".
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  It wasn't one lazy sentence, it was a paragraph. I don't think he was claiming that you can't use DSLs or ORMs successfully. This is just a quick opinion piece. Not all writing needs to be a thoroughly researched debate defense. I personally didn't already agree with what he wrote, but there was enough in it to make me think about the topic a little more and shift more toward his position. I already know what ORM code and raw SQL calls look like without him providing examples.
  - zzzeek 8y ago
    > I already know what ORM code and raw SQL calls look like without him providing examples. I do too and code that not only uses raw SQL (not that big a deal in and of itself) but also reinvents the whole persistence layer (which is the whole part of "ORM" that has nothing to do with writing SELECT statements or using DSLs) is a complete mess. I really want to see the examples so I can learn from them and perhaps have it contribute back to my own ORM project (SQLAlchemy).

It's about how ORMs result in less clean code by forcing a clunky generic OOP paradigm on any DB interaction. You may not agree with this argument, but it is an argument.

zzzeek 8y ago

one lazy sentence with no examples does not allow you to declare "Let’s dispel with the myth that ORMs make code cleaner. ". Make an argument, show examples, be specific. For example. I don't like Python's asyncio. I don't just blog, "can we just dispel with this myth that asyncio makes code faster?" and just bask in my upmods. I made a very well researched and tested argument and spent many hours making sure, if I was going to make a statement like "technology X that tens of thousands of you use every day is a myth", or more accurately "not quite as worthwhile as you might think", I took the time to thoroughly illustrate this: http://techspot.zzzeek.org/2015/02/15/asynchronous-python-and-databases/ http://techspot.zzzeek.org/2015/02/15/asynchronous-python-an... Whether or not people agree with what I wrote (though nobody seemed to really disagree much), I'm not just trolling for upmods, I'm making a tangible contribution to the subject. What this person posted is basically non-debatable because no debatable points were made. Those of us with a lot of time invested in DSLs and ORMs would prefer a real discussion with real things we can debate, not just who can rant more loudly. I can debate this blog post very simply that there's tens of thousands of developers who use DSLs and ORMs to great success every day and the burden of proof is on this poster to prove them all wrong. This is just a very low quality rant that appeals to base cheerleading instincts from whoever happens to agree with this person already, and I will choose the vast community of working software over this post in order to determine what exactly is a "myth".

daveFNbuck 8y ago
It wasn't one lazy sentence, it was a paragraph. I don't think he was claiming that you can't use DSLs or ORMs successfully. This is just a quick opinion piece. Not all writing needs to be a thoroughly researched debate defense. I personally didn't already agree with what he wrote, but there was enough in it to make me think about the topic a little more and shift more toward his position. I already know what ORM code and raw SQL calls look like without him providing examples.
- zzzeek 8y ago
  > I already know what ORM code and raw SQL calls look like without him providing examples. I do too and code that not only uses raw SQL (not that big a deal in and of itself) but also reinvents the whole persistence layer (which is the whole part of "ORM" that has nothing to do with writing SELECT statements or using DSLs) is a complete mess. I really want to see the examples so I can learn from them and perhaps have it contribute back to my own ORM project (SQLAlchemy).