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I'm on my third EV (Leaf, S, M3). Never going back. Since the Model 3 is so well built (after some startup hickups), I can recommend it on that alone. Tesla is

I'm on my third EV (Leaf, S, M3). Never going back. Since the Model 3 is so well built (after some startup hickups), I can recommend it on that alone. Tesla is very vertically integrated now (they make their own seats) and so the Model 3 is profitable for Tesla although the capital investment was quite high. Also, it's fun to drive next to a Viper and throw shade.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
It's fun that EVs are going to be the "sleeper" in transforming the energy grid; California needs tons of energy storage in order to transition entirely to renewables, and those EVs everyone is buying are a perfect compliment. A million Teslas on the road in California would be over 10GW of controllable charging load (roughly 10 stationary storage facilities PG&E is currently building with Tesla), and a more optimal destination for excessive renewable energy instead of being forced to pay a neighboring state's grid to take that excessive clean energy. A million EVs a year sold in California is 10GW of additional energy storage per year. My "ask" is that if you own an EV, and your employer isn't progressive about charging stations, politely prod them (there are usually incentives, find these!). My employer has an environmental progress initiative, and it only took a few emails for them to install a few Tesla and Clipper (non-manufacturer specific) chargers in our parking garage.
- jgibson 8y ago
  Maybe. The battery chemistry for a car vs stationary storage differs greatly. Stationary storage they optimised for ability to hold charge for long periods of time, and not loose capacity over time. Car batteries optimised for weight and charging speed. If you cycled your car battery every night with the grid it wouldn't last all that long. Maybe it won't make a difference in the long run with how many EVs we have though.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Tesla has a pilot program in the Netherlands. https://electrek.co/2017/02/03/tesla-controllable-charge-load-app-netherlands/ https://electrek.co/2017/02/03/tesla-controllable-charge-loa...
  - philipkglass 8y ago
    Most EVs charge daily. The idea is that you can update charging rate/time to match e.g. wind power output, which tends to peak late night/early morning. Dispatchable load is nearly as useful as dispatchable supply for balancing the grid. Discharging the battery to power the household would be a bad idea outside of emergencies, due to the capacity loss you note.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
madengr 8y ago
Ditto. I’m driving a Leaf and will never buy an ICE car again. In the article, I’m surprised the EVs are about the same sales as hybrids. I figured there would still be more hybrid sales.
- radiorental 8y ago
  Was talking to staff at the rental counter in Phoenix. They said that they stopped buying hybrids when gas dropped back down and the fact that they were costly to maintain... (More moving parts). Fleet sales were a big driver when gas prices were higher Plus, hybrids are a gutless jack of all trades and master of none
  - justinph 8y ago
    Depends a lot on the hybrid. Prius is the most reliable car you can buy. When I sold mine at 130k miles, it still had the original brake pads. You are right about the jack of all trades, and IMHO that's a good thing.
    - ansible 8y ago
      The hybrid transaxle on the Prius is a technological marvel. While the transaxle and battery pack add their own significant costs, complexity, and failure modes, they also eliminate a lot of the components on a conventional gas engine vehicle. In my area, it is common to see a lot of hybrids used as taxis. Some of the older ones I see likely have 500k miles.
- elihu 8y ago
  Same here, I thought hybrids were a lot bigger market. I'm surprised that ~90% of cars sold are still non-hybrid ICE cars. (I don't live in California, but I assume their numbers are fairly representative of the rest of the US.)
sandworm101 8y ago
>>> I'm on my third EV (Leaf, S, M3). Never going back. In how many years? Tossing cars on the junk pile every few years is an environmental nightmare. Who is taking these cars off your hands? I buy cars to keep. I demand that any car last at least 10 years, preferable 15+ without major work. My current Honda is nine years old. My last car ('92 BMW 325is) lasted twenty years. So I am very skeptical about advice regarding cars that have yet to prove their longevity. They are all great when brand new. How are they after the first hundred thousand miles/kilometers?
- srtjstjsj 8y ago
  The used car market exists. EV car batteries last at least 7 years, in theory and in the 2010 cars still on the road. After 7 years, they need a battery replacement (similar to how an ICE car needs engine work, just a one-shot replacement instead of lots of minor maintenance and repairs), and the old batteries are easily refurbished into other kinds of batteries (like home backup batteries) where charge-per-unit-weight-and-volume is less critical than in a car.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    The average car in the US is said to be older than 7 years, and ICE powered cars do not normally need a new engine at that point. Cars are usually scrapped at 14 years or more, I believe.
    - smileysteve 8y ago
      Anecdotally, a valve cover gasket, oil pan gasket, brake discs are going to be recommended on many cars after 7 years. There is already datab out there from high class rental companies that reduced maintenance from oil changes, brakes, and major repairs easily leaves room for new batteries.
      - 8y ago
patfla 8y ago
The Model 3 has, or may have, become profitable for Tesla since the average selling price has gone from the $34K initially advertised to (last I checked) $59K. Good deal - if you're Tesla.
compcoffee 8y ago
>Since the Model 3 is so well built (after some startup hickups) >and so the Model 3 is profitable for Tesla It's hard to imagine someone stating these things seriously. So well built? Go to the Tesla Forums; buyers are being recommended to bring a checklist of defects to look for before you agree to take ownership, and are routinely rejecting delivery. That is unfathomable in the auto industry, unless you're talking about Soviet Russia. "Improving"? Maybe. But "so well built"? That's a stretch. But don't take my word for it, go and see for yourself. And profitable? By what metric? Again; maybe. That is their intention, but there is zero evidence of that, and in fact evidence to the contrary. It constantly amazes me how Tesla fans seem so oblivious to the realities of the struggles the company is facing. Yes, the EV revolution is coming, but there is no guarantee Tesla will lead the way. >Also, it's fun to drive next to a Viper and throw shade. Oh, you mean the Viper, that is a full second faster than Performance Model 3 0-60, brakes 50% faster 60-0 and runs the quarter mile 2 seconds faster? What shade are you throwing, exactly?
- davidgould 8y ago
  > Viper, that is a full second faster than Performance Model 3 0-60 According to [0] the Viper is pretty much dead even with the Model 3 Performance. Where did you find "a full second"? Also, please provide a source for the "brakes 50% faster 60-0" as this is difficult to believe. [0] https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge-viper-0-60-times/ https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge-viper-0-60-times/

toomuchtodo 8y ago

It's fun that EVs are going to be the "sleeper" in transforming the energy grid; California needs tons of energy storage in order to transition entirely to renewables, and those EVs everyone is buying are a perfect compliment. A million Teslas on the road in California would be over 10GW of controllable charging load (roughly 10 stationary storage facilities PG&E is currently building with Tesla), and a more optimal destination for excessive renewable energy instead of being forced to pay a neighboring state's grid to take that excessive clean energy. A million EVs a year sold in California is 10GW of additional energy storage per year. My "ask" is that if you own an EV, and your employer isn't progressive about charging stations, politely prod them (there are usually incentives, find these!). My employer has an environmental progress initiative, and it only took a few emails for them to install a few Tesla and Clipper (non-manufacturer specific) chargers in our parking garage.

jgibson 8y ago
Maybe. The battery chemistry for a car vs stationary storage differs greatly. Stationary storage they optimised for ability to hold charge for long periods of time, and not loose capacity over time. Car batteries optimised for weight and charging speed. If you cycled your car battery every night with the grid it wouldn't last all that long. Maybe it won't make a difference in the long run with how many EVs we have though.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Tesla has a pilot program in the Netherlands. https://electrek.co/2017/02/03/tesla-controllable-charge-load-app-netherlands/ https://electrek.co/2017/02/03/tesla-controllable-charge-loa...
- philipkglass 8y ago
  Most EVs charge daily. The idea is that you can update charging rate/time to match e.g. wind power output, which tends to peak late night/early morning. Dispatchable load is nearly as useful as dispatchable supply for balancing the grid. Discharging the battery to power the household would be a bad idea outside of emergencies, due to the capacity loss you note.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

madengr 8y ago

Ditto. I’m driving a Leaf and will never buy an ICE car again. In the article, I’m surprised the EVs are about the same sales as hybrids. I figured there would still be more hybrid sales.

radiorental 8y ago
Was talking to staff at the rental counter in Phoenix. They said that they stopped buying hybrids when gas dropped back down and the fact that they were costly to maintain... (More moving parts). Fleet sales were a big driver when gas prices were higher Plus, hybrids are a gutless jack of all trades and master of none
- justinph 8y ago
  Depends a lot on the hybrid. Prius is the most reliable car you can buy. When I sold mine at 130k miles, it still had the original brake pads. You are right about the jack of all trades, and IMHO that's a good thing.
  - ansible 8y ago
    The hybrid transaxle on the Prius is a technological marvel. While the transaxle and battery pack add their own significant costs, complexity, and failure modes, they also eliminate a lot of the components on a conventional gas engine vehicle. In my area, it is common to see a lot of hybrids used as taxis. Some of the older ones I see likely have 500k miles.
elihu 8y ago
Same here, I thought hybrids were a lot bigger market. I'm surprised that ~90% of cars sold are still non-hybrid ICE cars. (I don't live in California, but I assume their numbers are fairly representative of the rest of the US.)

sandworm101 8y ago

>>> I'm on my third EV (Leaf, S, M3). Never going back. In how many years? Tossing cars on the junk pile every few years is an environmental nightmare. Who is taking these cars off your hands? I buy cars to keep. I demand that any car last at least 10 years, preferable 15+ without major work. My current Honda is nine years old. My last car ('92 BMW 325is) lasted twenty years. So I am very skeptical about advice regarding cars that have yet to prove their longevity. They are all great when brand new. How are they after the first hundred thousand miles/kilometers?

srtjstjsj 8y ago
The used car market exists. EV car batteries last at least 7 years, in theory and in the 2010 cars still on the road. After 7 years, they need a battery replacement (similar to how an ICE car needs engine work, just a one-shot replacement instead of lots of minor maintenance and repairs), and the old batteries are easily refurbished into other kinds of batteries (like home backup batteries) where charge-per-unit-weight-and-volume is less critical than in a car.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- perl4ever 8y ago
  The average car in the US is said to be older than 7 years, and ICE powered cars do not normally need a new engine at that point. Cars are usually scrapped at 14 years or more, I believe.
  - smileysteve 8y ago
    Anecdotally, a valve cover gasket, oil pan gasket, brake discs are going to be recommended on many cars after 7 years. There is already datab out there from high class rental companies that reduced maintenance from oil changes, brakes, and major repairs easily leaves room for new batteries.
    - 8y ago

patfla 8y ago

The Model 3 has, or may have, become profitable for Tesla since the average selling price has gone from the $34K initially advertised to (last I checked) $59K. Good deal - if you're Tesla.

compcoffee 8y ago

>Since the Model 3 is so well built (after some startup hickups) >and so the Model 3 is profitable for Tesla It's hard to imagine someone stating these things seriously. So well built? Go to the Tesla Forums; buyers are being recommended to bring a checklist of defects to look for before you agree to take ownership, and are routinely rejecting delivery. That is unfathomable in the auto industry, unless you're talking about Soviet Russia. "Improving"? Maybe. But "so well built"? That's a stretch. But don't take my word for it, go and see for yourself. And profitable? By what metric? Again; maybe. That is their intention, but there is zero evidence of that, and in fact evidence to the contrary. It constantly amazes me how Tesla fans seem so oblivious to the realities of the struggles the company is facing. Yes, the EV revolution is coming, but there is no guarantee Tesla will lead the way. >Also, it's fun to drive next to a Viper and throw shade. Oh, you mean the Viper, that is a full second faster than Performance Model 3 0-60, brakes 50% faster 60-0 and runs the quarter mile 2 seconds faster? What shade are you throwing, exactly?

davidgould 8y ago
> Viper, that is a full second faster than Performance Model 3 0-60 According to [0] the Viper is pretty much dead even with the Model 3 Performance. Where did you find "a full second"? Also, please provide a source for the "brakes 50% faster 60-0" as this is difficult to believe. [0] https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge-viper-0-60-times/ https://www.0-60specs.com/dodge-viper-0-60-times/