7 ms·

Paul Graham on why he doesn’t like seeing college-age and younger founders

98 points by kaboro 8y ago

rmason 8y ago
TechCrunch just trying to make news. To me the greatest part of the video was more stories about the antics of his friend Robert Morris. Most on HN weren't even born yet when his worm took down a large part of the net but I well remember it;<). I hadn't heard the story on how he took an entire term off to relaunch Harvard on the Internet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm
- clamprecht 8y ago
  I read Cuckoo's Egg by Cliff Stoll around 1990 (it covers RTM's story of creating the "worm")... that book had such an effect on my life. Later, while in prison (during the startup boom of 1995-2000), I remember reading another article talking about how RTM had become a millionaire in the startup scene (presumably with Viaweb). That article, again, had a huge effect on my life after prison.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Paul Graham is actually a minor character in Katie Hafner and John Markoff's book (_Cyberpunk_) about the incident.
- pm90 8y ago
  Robert Morris' case is an interesting one. While I'm unsure about whether the punishment handed out to him was deserving (It doesn't seem like he deliberately intended to cause so much damage, just to test his worm program) I am glad that the criminal justice system went after him despite him being a Ivy League Grad, with a father working at the NSA etc.
borski 8y ago
The confusing part to me is that YC started by appealing to college-age kids in Boston. Has the focus changed?
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  Not only was their first unicorn/public company started by college students (dropbox), arguably some of the largest companies of the recent era were started by college kids (facebook).
  - dd36 8y ago
    Some. Not most.
    - noobermin 8y ago
      If that's the average, the only way it'd be "some, not most" would be if there were a bimodal distribution significant young portion and a significant older portion >35.
  - FPGAhacker 8y ago
    Another datapoint, average age of a successful startup is 45. No mention of median https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-successful-startup-founder-is-45 https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
    - cheez 8y ago
      Well, if we assume that there are few successful founders, but enough people to skew the average age higher, then the oldest a few people to shift _that_ much could be are ~90. Since that is unlikely, it's likely that the median is close to the average.
    - thecleaner 8y ago
      What's the median ?
    - 8y ago
DrNuke 8y ago
Software is a commodity for complex or difficult industrial problems nowadays, so domain expertise is as relevant as coding abilities to sustain a profitable startup. Domain expertise cannot be acquired by chance and good scientists that have been trained for a long time become entrepreneurs later in their life, often after a stint in academy or corporation labs.
- corporateslaver 8y ago
  Is it a commodity? Why is such a premium placed on senior engineers then?
- shindog 8y ago
  Why does it matter though. If they produce something good it’ll make money. Otherwise it’ll fail and they’ll go back doing something else. Whole thing is a nothing burger.
andrewstuart 8y ago
Perhaps there is a tendency for older people to value older people more highly than younger people, and conversely for younger people to devalue older people in favor of younger people. As a famous young person once said "Young people are just smarter.". It appears the message here from PG is that "Younger people have intellect but perhaps not the demonstrated tenacity and drive needed to succeed, and tenacity and drive trump intellect when it comes to entrepreneurialism.
- pm90 8y ago
  Its natural to try to defend your group, and to think of oneself as somehow exceptional. So its easy to fall into justifying ideas and paradigms that lean towards those things.
- andrewstuart 8y ago
  >> a tendency for older people to value older people more highly than younger people Actually now that I think about it this is wrong. Everyone tends to value young people more highly than older people - that's the way our society works. What can be said is that "older people tend to devalue older people less than younger people devalue older people".
- chrisco255 8y ago
  Who was that, Zuckerberg? I wonder if he'd walk that back now that he's in his 30's?
- WalterBright 8y ago
  Never trust anyone over 30.
- j45 8y ago
  Remaining an innocent beginner is important for people with experience. Knowing there is stuff to learn is important for those who are beginners. It's important to see this through a lens of having an appropriate amount of potential and experience/maturity/discipline rather than a function of age. Folks who spend more time behind keyboards than learning about the experiences of others leaves them at a disadvantage of finding problems to solve that matter to others. Being young is an advantage in some ways, and not being young is an advantage in some ways. The more well rounded you are, while you're younger, and are able to learn from others, the greater your chances to are succeed, earlier. There is often (but not always) a need for young people to gather experience in problem-solving as experienced by others and discovering value. You gotta remember, the folks in their 30+'s were 20 once too, just like anyone, living in the same world of the internet absolutely being gobsmacking in possibilities. That hasn't gone away or changed, we're on the same playing field.
clamprecht 8y ago
And also, convicted felons make great startup hires! Disclosure: convicted felon here
- chrisco255 8y ago
  Yeah, a reformed person can be a great hire. Totally agreed.
  - pm90 8y ago
    I really think a distinction needs to be made b/w a reformed person and a convicted felon. All convicted felons are not necessarily reformed persons, and that distinction is very important.
a-dub 8y ago
eh, read to me like he was suggesting that young people try living their damn lives before shackling themselves to a business venture. you can always start a business venture, but you're pretty much only young and full of wonder once...
graycat 8y ago
So, Paul Graham (PG) gives us anxiety about startups, fear, uncertainty, doubt, for young people getting stuck prematurely on a long track that might be a mistake and losing out on their youth, etc. Okay, there are no doubt examples that support that. But PG's focus is a bit narrow, something like YC graduate and VC funded $100 billion in 10 years or bust. Here is a bigger picture that is really more accurate and optimistic: First, we should consider a wider range of startups than "... $100 billion ...." We should note that the US is just awash in startups, from Aunt Martha's custom made wedding dresses and Joe's landscaping service to the full range of Main Street businesses in villages, towns, ..., the largest cities, border to border in the US, to much more. Some of these startups include Tom's ambitious Web site. Tom's older brother is half way through his ugrad electronics engineering degree and has taken a trip to China and lined up some manufacturing for a new pocket, wireless electronics item for some special purpose or other, uh, maybe letting Aunt Martha's customers send in good 3D specifications of their body shapes from some ultrasonic signals. Lesson: There's a LOT of startup activity for all ages, both genders, all education levels, etc. in the US. Some of these, maybe not Aunt Martha's custom wedding dresses, maybe a young person's second startup if not their first, might be big surprises and become the $100 billion. Second, PG is too narrow on the influences, inputs, information, inspiration, guidance, leadership, knowledge, experience, examples, etc. in practice available, and often important, for young people in business. As for dolphins, orcas, whales, wolves, big cats of Africa, ..., human children learn from their parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, family members, friends, neighbors, etc. They might get to work in Uncle Harry's custom Web site development service or some of their father's 7 fast food restaurants, get started in wireless electronics from their grandfather, a senior engineer at Qualcomm, etc. -- maybe learn high school math by age 10, calculus at 11, vector analysis at 12, Maxwell's equations at 13 or some such and, then, do a wireless startup, with some help from Uncle Harry! Lesson: For a lot of young people who want to start businesses, there are a LOT of information sources other than paying "full tuition" at the scary, solo school of hard knocks and high probability of failure in any of several respects that PG seems to paint.
graycat 8y ago
If you write some software for a very popular Web site, no one else need know you were 60 years old, in a wheelchair, fired from IBM, and wearing sandals, sweat pants, and a Grateful Dead T-shirt. What matters is the Web site, the design, the code, pleasing users, running ads, getting revenue.

98 points by kaboro 8y ago

TechCrunch just trying to make news. To me the greatest part of the video was more stories about the antics of his friend Robert Morris. Most on HN weren't even born yet when his worm took down a large part of the net but I well remember it;<). I hadn't heard the story on how he took an entire term off to relaunch Harvard on the Internet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm

clamprecht 8y ago
I read Cuckoo's Egg by Cliff Stoll around 1990 (it covers RTM's story of creating the "worm")... that book had such an effect on my life. Later, while in prison (during the startup boom of 1995-2000), I remember reading another article talking about how RTM had become a millionaire in the startup scene (presumably with Viaweb). That article, again, had a huge effect on my life after prison.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Paul Graham is actually a minor character in Katie Hafner and John Markoff's book (_Cyberpunk_) about the incident.
pm90 8y ago
Robert Morris' case is an interesting one. While I'm unsure about whether the punishment handed out to him was deserving (It doesn't seem like he deliberately intended to cause so much damage, just to test his worm program) I am glad that the criminal justice system went after him despite him being a Ivy League Grad, with a father working at the NSA etc.

borski 8y ago

The confusing part to me is that YC started by appealing to college-age kids in Boston. Has the focus changed?

TAForObvReasons 8y ago
Not only was their first unicorn/public company started by college students (dropbox), arguably some of the largest companies of the recent era were started by college kids (facebook).
- dd36 8y ago
  Some. Not most.
  - noobermin 8y ago
    If that's the average, the only way it'd be "some, not most" would be if there were a bimodal distribution significant young portion and a significant older portion >35.
- FPGAhacker 8y ago
  Another datapoint, average age of a successful startup is 45. No mention of median https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-successful-startup-founder-is-45 https://hbr.org/2018/07/research-the-average-age-of-a-succes...
  - cheez 8y ago
    Well, if we assume that there are few successful founders, but enough people to skew the average age higher, then the oldest a few people to shift _that_ much could be are ~90. Since that is unlikely, it's likely that the median is close to the average.
  - thecleaner 8y ago
    What's the median ?
  - 8y ago

DrNuke 8y ago

Software is a commodity for complex or difficult industrial problems nowadays, so domain expertise is as relevant as coding abilities to sustain a profitable startup. Domain expertise cannot be acquired by chance and good scientists that have been trained for a long time become entrepreneurs later in their life, often after a stint in academy or corporation labs.

corporateslaver 8y ago
Is it a commodity? Why is such a premium placed on senior engineers then?
shindog 8y ago
Why does it matter though. If they produce something good it’ll make money. Otherwise it’ll fail and they’ll go back doing something else. Whole thing is a nothing burger.

andrewstuart 8y ago

Perhaps there is a tendency for older people to value older people more highly than younger people, and conversely for younger people to devalue older people in favor of younger people. As a famous young person once said "Young people are just smarter.". It appears the message here from PG is that "Younger people have intellect but perhaps not the demonstrated tenacity and drive needed to succeed, and tenacity and drive trump intellect when it comes to entrepreneurialism.

pm90 8y ago
Its natural to try to defend your group, and to think of oneself as somehow exceptional. So its easy to fall into justifying ideas and paradigms that lean towards those things.
andrewstuart 8y ago
>> a tendency for older people to value older people more highly than younger people Actually now that I think about it this is wrong. Everyone tends to value young people more highly than older people - that's the way our society works. What can be said is that "older people tend to devalue older people less than younger people devalue older people".
chrisco255 8y ago
Who was that, Zuckerberg? I wonder if he'd walk that back now that he's in his 30's?
WalterBright 8y ago
Never trust anyone over 30.
j45 8y ago
Remaining an innocent beginner is important for people with experience. Knowing there is stuff to learn is important for those who are beginners. It's important to see this through a lens of having an appropriate amount of potential and experience/maturity/discipline rather than a function of age. Folks who spend more time behind keyboards than learning about the experiences of others leaves them at a disadvantage of finding problems to solve that matter to others. Being young is an advantage in some ways, and not being young is an advantage in some ways. The more well rounded you are, while you're younger, and are able to learn from others, the greater your chances to are succeed, earlier. There is often (but not always) a need for young people to gather experience in problem-solving as experienced by others and discovering value. You gotta remember, the folks in their 30+'s were 20 once too, just like anyone, living in the same world of the internet absolutely being gobsmacking in possibilities. That hasn't gone away or changed, we're on the same playing field.

clamprecht 8y ago

And also, convicted felons make great startup hires! Disclosure: convicted felon here

chrisco255 8y ago
Yeah, a reformed person can be a great hire. Totally agreed.
- pm90 8y ago
  I really think a distinction needs to be made b/w a reformed person and a convicted felon. All convicted felons are not necessarily reformed persons, and that distinction is very important.

a-dub 8y ago

eh, read to me like he was suggesting that young people try living their damn lives before shackling themselves to a business venture. you can always start a business venture, but you're pretty much only young and full of wonder once...

graycat 8y ago

So, Paul Graham (PG) gives us anxiety about startups, fear, uncertainty, doubt, for young people getting stuck prematurely on a long track that might be a mistake and losing out on their youth, etc. Okay, there are no doubt examples that support that. But PG's focus is a bit narrow, something like YC graduate and VC funded $100 billion in 10 years or bust. Here is a bigger picture that is really more accurate and optimistic: First, we should consider a wider range of startups than "... $100 billion ...." We should note that the US is just awash in startups, from Aunt Martha's custom made wedding dresses and Joe's landscaping service to the full range of Main Street businesses in villages, towns, ..., the largest cities, border to border in the US, to much more. Some of these startups include Tom's ambitious Web site. Tom's older brother is half way through his ugrad electronics engineering degree and has taken a trip to China and lined up some manufacturing for a new pocket, wireless electronics item for some special purpose or other, uh, maybe letting Aunt Martha's customers send in good 3D specifications of their body shapes from some ultrasonic signals. Lesson: There's a LOT of startup activity for all ages, both genders, all education levels, etc. in the US. Some of these, maybe not Aunt Martha's custom wedding dresses, maybe a young person's second startup if not their first, might be big surprises and become the $100 billion. Second, PG is too narrow on the influences, inputs, information, inspiration, guidance, leadership, knowledge, experience, examples, etc. in practice available, and often important, for young people in business. As for dolphins, orcas, whales, wolves, big cats of Africa, ..., human children learn from their parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, family members, friends, neighbors, etc. They might get to work in Uncle Harry's custom Web site development service or some of their father's 7 fast food restaurants, get started in wireless electronics from their grandfather, a senior engineer at Qualcomm, etc. -- maybe learn high school math by age 10, calculus at 11, vector analysis at 12, Maxwell's equations at 13 or some such and, then, do a wireless startup, with some help from Uncle Harry! Lesson: For a lot of young people who want to start businesses, there are a LOT of information sources other than paying "full tuition" at the scary, solo school of hard knocks and high probability of failure in any of several respects that PG seems to paint.

graycat 8y ago

If you write some software for a very popular Web site, no one else need know you were 60 years old, in a wheelchair, fired from IBM, and wearing sandals, sweat pants, and a Grateful Dead T-shirt. What matters is the Web site, the design, the code, pleasing users, running ads, getting revenue.