7 ms·

I lived on the French Riviera in the 80s. Nearly all European women were topless at the beach, and in St. Tropez, there was full nudity. I recently visited, and

I lived on the French Riviera in the 80s. Nearly all European women were topless at the beach, and in St. Tropez, there was full nudity. I recently visited, and the only topless women were older. None of the youth went topless. Fewer exposed breasts in advertising as well. No idea the cause, probably, instant global media has made them self-consciously realize few countries are that permissive.

mc32 8y ago
Or maybe it’s the ogling tourists who are not used to this who are turning them off —by sexualizing the custom. Or you may be right that maybe they are finding out this is not the global normal—altho I don’t think that would affect their attitude. Or as alluded to, maybe it's just the sexualization of nakedness.
- qaq 8y ago
  Or maybe there is increase of people in these places from cultures where a woman would get stoned for less, but that would be a very un-PC premise.
  - frostburg 8y ago
    Immigrants are basically socially invisible in that sort of context, they have no ability to exert social pressure whatsoever. It would be obvious to anyone actually living here that you're simply wrong.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Tell that to immigrants that followed my friend in a public street at around 10pm and tried to shamed her "why are you wearing this skirt" and such last month. And she was not even that provocatively dressed (way less than the average working class girl -- what english would call a "chav" -- in her late teens going out for a drink on friday/saturday)
      - frostburg 8y ago
        Where did this happen? Even if it actually happened, do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society?
        TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        Changing behavior and changing attitude are not the same thing. If you would like to go e.g. topless, but have concerns about the behaviors or peoples around you then you haven't changed your attitude - but you have changed your behavior. I'm not nit picking semantics as this is really a very important issue in society today -- you cannot derive how people think from how people act.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Even if it actually happened You could not believe me (as a random person on the web), but your phrasing implies that you also consider this somehow beyond the realm of possibility. It happened in Athens, if that matters. >do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society Yeah, where's the surprise? Changes in demographics, like an increased presence of people with more conservative values in an area, can, and do, change the attitudes of a society, just like immigration can influence cuisine, music, religion, and other cultural aspects.
        frostburg 8y ago
        It's not beyond the realm of possibility; I recall a convert to Islam (that looked rather out of place with his red hair, etc.) in the UK trying to perform "sharia patrols" in the streets. I contest believing that young people going to beach in France or Italy would give even passing thought to what these people think or want, because it's completly outside the realm of my experience of the people that I've ever known to go to the beach, ever. A vastly more likely consideration is avoiding unwanted attention from people that approve of mostly undressed girls. I don't think that you understand (I don't know, maybe you live here?) how socially -isolated- immigrants are.
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    Let’s call a horse a horse and be clear that your “un-PC” is thinly veiled racism.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Or, you know, let's call a spade a space, and that the "thinly veiled racism" accusation is just a thought stopper, based on the a priori premise that a certain group of people can do no harm just because they're in distress themselves...
    - qaq 8y ago
      what race has to do with this? Go topless in say Iran and report back on your experience. You do realize that Iran is "land of the Aryans" literally so while anything you disagree with you can easily dismiss by labeling it racism in this case you gonna have pretty tough time.
- coldtea 8y ago
  It's also the prudish push against sexualization... Even in otherwise conservative countries (like Italy), sexualization, in media and in society at large, just wasn't a big deal in continental Europe... You could watch things in national broadcasting that would be off limits for Americans for example. And similarly for movies and books.
  - mc32 8y ago
    So I think there is this point where as an individual or society one can switch contexts easily and readily between apparent contradictions. In this case being naked is not the same as sex. Contrast that with the fetish parades or even some aspects of the pride parades where nakedness is sex. Anyhow, it looks like they are losjng their "innocent" context switching abilities due to “awareness” by media exposure, advertising, tourists, global norms, etc.
  - firasd 8y ago
    Yeah, I wonder to what extent this dovetails with things like sexualization being reduced in American media... but that said I don't think the reduction in sexualization should be dismissed as 'prudery'. For example, air hostesses used to be pretty sexualized in terms of their clothing, advertisements etc, but that's not necessarily a healthy work environment.
martythemaniak 8y ago
It applies to men as well, in a way. When I was a boy in 80s Europe, I wore a speedo at the beach, which was exactly what my dad and every other man wore. I don't think there was anything else you could buy and I never saw anyone wear shorts. I thought north America and their shorts weird at first, but I switched quickly. My friends were later scandalized when I told them I used to wear speedos. Today, when I go back, nearly everyone is wearing north American style shorts and very occasionally the tight long boxer like speedos. Anyway it could just be cyclical fashion.
- brightball 8y ago
  In the US if you are spotted wearing a speedo there are 3 possible reasons: 1. You are in a competitive swimming event 2. You are from another country 3. You are a college student trying to be funny
  - bitL 8y ago
    4. You are in South Beach Miami and couldn't care less
- SyneRyder 8y ago
  The same is true in Australia. While you can wear speedos, it's something of an unwritten rule that you shouldn't do it unless you're good looking. One of Australia's (many) ex Prime Ministers was widely derided for always wearing "budgie smugglers". There was a TV ad in Australia (originally from the UK) related to this. It asks the simple question: "How far away from the beach do bathers become undies?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8
- repolfx 8y ago
  For me it was simply that the shorts are a lot more comfortable than speedos. Speedos were never great.
Qworg 8y ago
Nice still had quite a few topless women of all ages on the private beaches when I visited in May.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  Málaga did too when I was there for a few weeks in June.
dmortin 8y ago
As the article says: "Smartphones with cameras make risqué undress riskier." In the old times only people around you saw you. Today someone is there with a phone, takes a photo and the photo can be uploaded to the net for everyone to see.
- KC8ZKF 8y ago
  Also,the major social media companies are rather prudish. Want to post a selfie from the beach? You better be covered up!
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    That's actually a good point, the ToS of American companies (and FCC policy) are based on what is, probably, a (prude, christian) minority, imposed on all Americans; and with their dominance over "social" media these rules are imposed on even more people.
    - d3sandoval 8y ago
      I wouldn't be too sure about that minority: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-had-100-people-charting-americans-religious-affiliations/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-h... And the data on sexting shows that it's very much a minority of Americans who send/receive nudes: http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexting-data-on-sendingreceiving-sexually-suggestive-nude-or-nearly-nude-photos-by-americans/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexti...
sandworm101 8y ago
>> None of the youth went topless. Digital cameras. Young girls don't mind being topless in front of the people on the beach. They do mind being photographed and finding themselves in some online collection being shared across the planet. Coupled with the risk of facial recognition or other tagging schemes, they really don't want their identities/addresses being shared alongside semi-nude pictures. Cameras now have a much greater "creep potential" than film. I would also suggest that a greater awareness of skin cancer means younger people generally cover up more, trickling down to lesser toplessness for both men and women.
- bitL 8y ago
  It seems like young girls are actually trying to get photographed as revealing as they can get away with in their cultural space; only when they hit 23+ that changes completely.
holografix 8y ago
Maybe the fact that everyone has alight res camera in their pockets has something to do with it?
Fnoord 8y ago
Seems the United States of America is going for a cultural victory [1], doesn't it? Imagine, that you'd walk with your toddler on the beach in St. Tropez and your kid would see a nipple. That'd be downright traumatising. I mean, the deprivation of milk... Heck even Louis de Funès movies which took place in/near St. Tropez contained nudity. Now those would be 18+. A shame. Although I don't want my child naked on the beach (she's half a year old) not because I mind someone seeing her naked but because of all the cameras/smartphones. The loss of privacy is real, and its a direct effect due to the common practice of taking your smartphone -with quality camera these days- with you everywhere. [1] http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5) http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5)
- paul7986 8y ago
  The US does have nude beaches too... one that’s even monitored by park rangers. Social media and the cameras in our pocket haven’t killed this beach I speak of’s Popularity. Overall we arent all that purdish.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Before smartphones, being naked on a beach is a social contract where you see each other naked at the price of being naked yourself. The ability to make pictures murks that social contract; it allows to "cheat". > Overall we arent all that purdish. Not everyone in the USA is, but do you remember the drama about Janet Jackson's nipple? Or how protective ratings in games and movies/series are regarding anything related to sex, yet violence seems totally OK? That's the double standard of the USA. It doesn't have to be this way. Before the innovation of smartphones with high quality cameras young children, here, used to be just naked on beach. It also used to be very normal to breastfeed in public. But there are various possible factors as the article describes. Since as you need to lock your smartphone up (not allowed to take with you) this doesn't explain why saunas are now more prudent.
- sixdimensional 8y ago
  I'm going to make a very controversial point for the sake of argument, not one I am even sure I agree with. In my line of work, I don't see an increase in privacy happening, I see exactly the opposite despite increasing privacy measures. In fact, I see observation (video, audio, etc.) devices are literally going to be everywhere. They are in our devices, homes, cars, transportation vehicles (aircraft, public transit), cities, streets - there is nearly nowhere to hide - for any of us. Whether this is right or wrong may not matter any more unless it can be controlled. Can it be controlled? If it cannot be controlled, I see only one other option - and this is the sticky point... ..we have to be ready to face ourselves and each other publicly at all times. There will be little to no way to hide, to maintain privacy, etc. Our cultures will have to adapt, perhaps, at first, by trying to hide, enacting laws, etc. However, if it is inevitable that privacy cannot be maintained, then I argue, our culture will have to evolve. Perhaps the culture of the future will protect your child from sexual predators in a different way. Perhaps we will have equal potential to be seen naked publicly whether on the Internet, a nude beach, regardless of age, gender or ethnicity. To ensure the safety and security of society, people will have to change, even if our accepted norms of nudity, sexuality, etc. change. I can only hope that we as humans will be able to evolve to handle the changed paradigm and still ensure reasonable safety and security of society. I will say, I believe people today globally already have to be extremely more open-minded than ever before, on average, just to mentally cope with how we have changed as humans. Feel free to debate me here.. as I said, I am not sure if even I believe what I'm writing, but.. I'm trying to be open-minded about it.
mradmin 8y ago
I live in Barcelona (expat). On the "main" beach (Barceloneta) you'll find full on nudity, mixed with tourists, families and others who aren't nude. The thing is, truely no one cares. It is so not sexual, and i am yet to see someone treating it as sexual. I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Every beach I go to along the coast here (and up the Costa brava) I find nudity. Young, old, male, female, you name it. I expect to see peni, balls and breasts any beach I go to. I don't know what it is about this side of the world, but nudity is still completely separate from sex. No one will bat an eyelid if you decide to go nude. This is maybe a generalisation but after almost 3 years I'm yet to see people complain or be uncomfortable about the nudity here. I don't really have another other point, just mentioning my observations.
- usaphp 8y ago
  > I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Because those who do record it are doing their best to make sure not get spotted
usaphp 8y ago
I think it’s because in the 80s there weren’t 17 y/o YouTube/instagram celebs running around taking pictures of everything and posting it on social media. One thing is to be topless on a beach and another is to end up in someone’s compilation nude video on Instagram
awucs 8y ago
I think most of these comments are missing the mark. There have always been cameras. As you say older people don't often care if they are naked. Younger people do because it isn't normal anymore. And that is because the influence of US media, and maybe especially social media, where you can't be naked. And if you are it is to sell something, or it is dirty. Freedom on the Internet is American freedom and that includes stolen celebrity pictures on the dark web (since apparently celebrities don't deserve actual privacy), but not showing your own nipple, even by mistake, on Instagram.

mc32 8y ago

Or maybe it’s the ogling tourists who are not used to this who are turning them off —by sexualizing the custom. Or you may be right that maybe they are finding out this is not the global normal—altho I don’t think that would affect their attitude. Or as alluded to, maybe it's just the sexualization of nakedness.

qaq 8y ago
Or maybe there is increase of people in these places from cultures where a woman would get stoned for less, but that would be a very un-PC premise.
- frostburg 8y ago
  Immigrants are basically socially invisible in that sort of context, they have no ability to exert social pressure whatsoever. It would be obvious to anyone actually living here that you're simply wrong.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Tell that to immigrants that followed my friend in a public street at around 10pm and tried to shamed her "why are you wearing this skirt" and such last month. And she was not even that provocatively dressed (way less than the average working class girl -- what english would call a "chav" -- in her late teens going out for a drink on friday/saturday)
    - frostburg 8y ago
      Where did this happen? Even if it actually happened, do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society?
      - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        Changing behavior and changing attitude are not the same thing. If you would like to go e.g. topless, but have concerns about the behaviors or peoples around you then you haven't changed your attitude - but you have changed your behavior. I'm not nit picking semantics as this is really a very important issue in society today -- you cannot derive how people think from how people act.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >Even if it actually happened You could not believe me (as a random person on the web), but your phrasing implies that you also consider this somehow beyond the realm of possibility. It happened in Athens, if that matters. >do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society Yeah, where's the surprise? Changes in demographics, like an increased presence of people with more conservative values in an area, can, and do, change the attitudes of a society, just like immigration can influence cuisine, music, religion, and other cultural aspects.
        frostburg 8y ago
        It's not beyond the realm of possibility; I recall a convert to Islam (that looked rather out of place with his red hair, etc.) in the UK trying to perform "sharia patrols" in the streets. I contest believing that young people going to beach in France or Italy would give even passing thought to what these people think or want, because it's completly outside the realm of my experience of the people that I've ever known to go to the beach, ever. A vastly more likely consideration is avoiding unwanted attention from people that approve of mostly undressed girls. I don't think that you understand (I don't know, maybe you live here?) how socially -isolated- immigrants are.
- Xylakant 8y ago
  Let’s call a horse a horse and be clear that your “un-PC” is thinly veiled racism.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Or, you know, let's call a spade a space, and that the "thinly veiled racism" accusation is just a thought stopper, based on the a priori premise that a certain group of people can do no harm just because they're in distress themselves...
  - qaq 8y ago
    what race has to do with this? Go topless in say Iran and report back on your experience. You do realize that Iran is "land of the Aryans" literally so while anything you disagree with you can easily dismiss by labeling it racism in this case you gonna have pretty tough time.
coldtea 8y ago
It's also the prudish push against sexualization... Even in otherwise conservative countries (like Italy), sexualization, in media and in society at large, just wasn't a big deal in continental Europe... You could watch things in national broadcasting that would be off limits for Americans for example. And similarly for movies and books.
- mc32 8y ago
  So I think there is this point where as an individual or society one can switch contexts easily and readily between apparent contradictions. In this case being naked is not the same as sex. Contrast that with the fetish parades or even some aspects of the pride parades where nakedness is sex. Anyhow, it looks like they are losjng their "innocent" context switching abilities due to “awareness” by media exposure, advertising, tourists, global norms, etc.
- firasd 8y ago
  Yeah, I wonder to what extent this dovetails with things like sexualization being reduced in American media... but that said I don't think the reduction in sexualization should be dismissed as 'prudery'. For example, air hostesses used to be pretty sexualized in terms of their clothing, advertisements etc, but that's not necessarily a healthy work environment.

martythemaniak 8y ago

It applies to men as well, in a way. When I was a boy in 80s Europe, I wore a speedo at the beach, which was exactly what my dad and every other man wore. I don't think there was anything else you could buy and I never saw anyone wear shorts. I thought north America and their shorts weird at first, but I switched quickly. My friends were later scandalized when I told them I used to wear speedos. Today, when I go back, nearly everyone is wearing north American style shorts and very occasionally the tight long boxer like speedos. Anyway it could just be cyclical fashion.

brightball 8y ago
In the US if you are spotted wearing a speedo there are 3 possible reasons: 1. You are in a competitive swimming event 2. You are from another country 3. You are a college student trying to be funny
- bitL 8y ago
  4. You are in South Beach Miami and couldn't care less
SyneRyder 8y ago
The same is true in Australia. While you can wear speedos, it's something of an unwritten rule that you shouldn't do it unless you're good looking. One of Australia's (many) ex Prime Ministers was widely derided for always wearing "budgie smugglers". There was a TV ad in Australia (originally from the UK) related to this. It asks the simple question: "How far away from the beach do bathers become undies?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8
repolfx 8y ago
For me it was simply that the shorts are a lot more comfortable than speedos. Speedos were never great.

Qworg 8y ago

Nice still had quite a few topless women of all ages on the private beaches when I visited in May.

dorchadas 8y ago
Málaga did too when I was there for a few weeks in June.

dmortin 8y ago

As the article says: "Smartphones with cameras make risqué undress riskier." In the old times only people around you saw you. Today someone is there with a phone, takes a photo and the photo can be uploaded to the net for everyone to see.

KC8ZKF 8y ago
Also,the major social media companies are rather prudish. Want to post a selfie from the beach? You better be covered up!
- blattimwind 8y ago
  That's actually a good point, the ToS of American companies (and FCC policy) are based on what is, probably, a (prude, christian) minority, imposed on all Americans; and with their dominance over "social" media these rules are imposed on even more people.
  - d3sandoval 8y ago
    I wouldn't be too sure about that minority: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-had-100-people-charting-americans-religious-affiliations/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-h... And the data on sexting shows that it's very much a minority of Americans who send/receive nudes: http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexting-data-on-sendingreceiving-sexually-suggestive-nude-or-nearly-nude-photos-by-americans/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexti...

sandworm101 8y ago

>> None of the youth went topless. Digital cameras. Young girls don't mind being topless in front of the people on the beach. They do mind being photographed and finding themselves in some online collection being shared across the planet. Coupled with the risk of facial recognition or other tagging schemes, they really don't want their identities/addresses being shared alongside semi-nude pictures. Cameras now have a much greater "creep potential" than film. I would also suggest that a greater awareness of skin cancer means younger people generally cover up more, trickling down to lesser toplessness for both men and women.

bitL 8y ago
It seems like young girls are actually trying to get photographed as revealing as they can get away with in their cultural space; only when they hit 23+ that changes completely.

holografix 8y ago

Maybe the fact that everyone has alight res camera in their pockets has something to do with it?

Fnoord 8y ago

Seems the United States of America is going for a cultural victory [1], doesn't it? Imagine, that you'd walk with your toddler on the beach in St. Tropez and your kid would see a nipple. That'd be downright traumatising. I mean, the deprivation of milk... Heck even Louis de Funès movies which took place in/near St. Tropez contained nudity. Now those would be 18+. A shame. Although I don't want my child naked on the beach (she's half a year old) not because I mind someone seeing her naked but because of all the cameras/smartphones. The loss of privacy is real, and its a direct effect due to the common practice of taking your smartphone -with quality camera these days- with you everywhere. [1] http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5) http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5)

paul7986 8y ago
The US does have nude beaches too... one that’s even monitored by park rangers. Social media and the cameras in our pocket haven’t killed this beach I speak of’s Popularity. Overall we arent all that purdish.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Before smartphones, being naked on a beach is a social contract where you see each other naked at the price of being naked yourself. The ability to make pictures murks that social contract; it allows to "cheat". > Overall we arent all that purdish. Not everyone in the USA is, but do you remember the drama about Janet Jackson's nipple? Or how protective ratings in games and movies/series are regarding anything related to sex, yet violence seems totally OK? That's the double standard of the USA. It doesn't have to be this way. Before the innovation of smartphones with high quality cameras young children, here, used to be just naked on beach. It also used to be very normal to breastfeed in public. But there are various possible factors as the article describes. Since as you need to lock your smartphone up (not allowed to take with you) this doesn't explain why saunas are now more prudent.
sixdimensional 8y ago
I'm going to make a very controversial point for the sake of argument, not one I am even sure I agree with. In my line of work, I don't see an increase in privacy happening, I see exactly the opposite despite increasing privacy measures. In fact, I see observation (video, audio, etc.) devices are literally going to be everywhere. They are in our devices, homes, cars, transportation vehicles (aircraft, public transit), cities, streets - there is nearly nowhere to hide - for any of us. Whether this is right or wrong may not matter any more unless it can be controlled. Can it be controlled? If it cannot be controlled, I see only one other option - and this is the sticky point... ..we have to be ready to face ourselves and each other publicly at all times. There will be little to no way to hide, to maintain privacy, etc. Our cultures will have to adapt, perhaps, at first, by trying to hide, enacting laws, etc. However, if it is inevitable that privacy cannot be maintained, then I argue, our culture will have to evolve. Perhaps the culture of the future will protect your child from sexual predators in a different way. Perhaps we will have equal potential to be seen naked publicly whether on the Internet, a nude beach, regardless of age, gender or ethnicity. To ensure the safety and security of society, people will have to change, even if our accepted norms of nudity, sexuality, etc. change. I can only hope that we as humans will be able to evolve to handle the changed paradigm and still ensure reasonable safety and security of society. I will say, I believe people today globally already have to be extremely more open-minded than ever before, on average, just to mentally cope with how we have changed as humans. Feel free to debate me here.. as I said, I am not sure if even I believe what I'm writing, but.. I'm trying to be open-minded about it.

mradmin 8y ago

I live in Barcelona (expat). On the "main" beach (Barceloneta) you'll find full on nudity, mixed with tourists, families and others who aren't nude. The thing is, truely no one cares. It is so not sexual, and i am yet to see someone treating it as sexual. I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Every beach I go to along the coast here (and up the Costa brava) I find nudity. Young, old, male, female, you name it. I expect to see peni, balls and breasts any beach I go to. I don't know what it is about this side of the world, but nudity is still completely separate from sex. No one will bat an eyelid if you decide to go nude. This is maybe a generalisation but after almost 3 years I'm yet to see people complain or be uncomfortable about the nudity here. I don't really have another other point, just mentioning my observations.

usaphp 8y ago
> I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Because those who do record it are doing their best to make sure not get spotted

usaphp 8y ago

I think it’s because in the 80s there weren’t 17 y/o YouTube/instagram celebs running around taking pictures of everything and posting it on social media. One thing is to be topless on a beach and another is to end up in someone’s compilation nude video on Instagram

awucs 8y ago

I think most of these comments are missing the mark. There have always been cameras. As you say older people don't often care if they are naked. Younger people do because it isn't normal anymore. And that is because the influence of US media, and maybe especially social media, where you can't be naked. And if you are it is to sell something, or it is dirty. Freedom on the Internet is American freedom and that includes stolen celebrity pictures on the dark web (since apparently celebrities don't deserve actual privacy), but not showing your own nipple, even by mistake, on Instagram.