11 ms·

Naked Europe covers up

56 points by kylebarron 8y ago

joshuaheard 8y ago
I lived on the French Riviera in the 80s. Nearly all European women were topless at the beach, and in St. Tropez, there was full nudity. I recently visited, and the only topless women were older. None of the youth went topless. Fewer exposed breasts in advertising as well. No idea the cause, probably, instant global media has made them self-consciously realize few countries are that permissive.
- mc32 8y ago
  Or maybe it’s the ogling tourists who are not used to this who are turning them off —by sexualizing the custom. Or you may be right that maybe they are finding out this is not the global normal—altho I don’t think that would affect their attitude. Or as alluded to, maybe it's just the sexualization of nakedness.
  - qaq 8y ago
    Or maybe there is increase of people in these places from cultures where a woman would get stoned for less, but that would be a very un-PC premise.
    - frostburg 8y ago
      Immigrants are basically socially invisible in that sort of context, they have no ability to exert social pressure whatsoever. It would be obvious to anyone actually living here that you're simply wrong.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        Tell that to immigrants that followed my friend in a public street at around 10pm and tried to shamed her "why are you wearing this skirt" and such last month. And she was not even that provocatively dressed (way less than the average working class girl -- what english would call a "chav" -- in her late teens going out for a drink on friday/saturday)
        frostburg 8y ago
        Where did this happen? Even if it actually happened, do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society?
        TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        Changing behavior and changing attitude are not the same thing. If you would like to go e.g. topless, but have concerns about the behaviors or peoples around you then you haven't changed your attitude - but you have changed your behavior. I'm not nit picking semantics as this is really a very important issue in society today -- you cannot derive how people think from how people act.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Even if it actually happened You could not believe me (as a random person on the web), but your phrasing implies that you also consider this somehow beyond the realm of possibility. It happened in Athens, if that matters. >do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society Yeah, where's the surprise? Changes in demographics, like an increased presence of people with more conservative values in an area, can, and do, change the attitudes of a society, just like immigration can influence cuisine, music, religion, and other cultural aspects.
        frostburg 8y ago
        It's not beyond the realm of possibility; I recall a convert to Islam (that looked rather out of place with his red hair, etc.) in the UK trying to perform "sharia patrols" in the streets. I contest believing that young people going to beach in France or Italy would give even passing thought to what these people think or want, because it's completly outside the realm of my experience of the people that I've ever known to go to the beach, ever. A vastly more likely consideration is avoiding unwanted attention from people that approve of mostly undressed girls. I don't think that you understand (I don't know, maybe you live here?) how socially -isolated- immigrants are.
    - Xylakant 8y ago
      Let’s call a horse a horse and be clear that your “un-PC” is thinly veiled racism.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        Or, you know, let's call a spade a space, and that the "thinly veiled racism" accusation is just a thought stopper, based on the a priori premise that a certain group of people can do no harm just because they're in distress themselves...
      - qaq 8y ago
        what race has to do with this? Go topless in say Iran and report back on your experience. You do realize that Iran is "land of the Aryans" literally so while anything you disagree with you can easily dismiss by labeling it racism in this case you gonna have pretty tough time.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    It's also the prudish push against sexualization... Even in otherwise conservative countries (like Italy), sexualization, in media and in society at large, just wasn't a big deal in continental Europe... You could watch things in national broadcasting that would be off limits for Americans for example. And similarly for movies and books.
    - mc32 8y ago
      So I think there is this point where as an individual or society one can switch contexts easily and readily between apparent contradictions. In this case being naked is not the same as sex. Contrast that with the fetish parades or even some aspects of the pride parades where nakedness is sex. Anyhow, it looks like they are losjng their "innocent" context switching abilities due to “awareness” by media exposure, advertising, tourists, global norms, etc.
    - firasd 8y ago
      Yeah, I wonder to what extent this dovetails with things like sexualization being reduced in American media... but that said I don't think the reduction in sexualization should be dismissed as 'prudery'. For example, air hostesses used to be pretty sexualized in terms of their clothing, advertisements etc, but that's not necessarily a healthy work environment.
- martythemaniak 8y ago
  It applies to men as well, in a way. When I was a boy in 80s Europe, I wore a speedo at the beach, which was exactly what my dad and every other man wore. I don't think there was anything else you could buy and I never saw anyone wear shorts. I thought north America and their shorts weird at first, but I switched quickly. My friends were later scandalized when I told them I used to wear speedos. Today, when I go back, nearly everyone is wearing north American style shorts and very occasionally the tight long boxer like speedos. Anyway it could just be cyclical fashion.
  - brightball 8y ago
    In the US if you are spotted wearing a speedo there are 3 possible reasons: 1. You are in a competitive swimming event 2. You are from another country 3. You are a college student trying to be funny
    - bitL 8y ago
      4. You are in South Beach Miami and couldn't care less
  - SyneRyder 8y ago
    The same is true in Australia. While you can wear speedos, it's something of an unwritten rule that you shouldn't do it unless you're good looking. One of Australia's (many) ex Prime Ministers was widely derided for always wearing "budgie smugglers". There was a TV ad in Australia (originally from the UK) related to this. It asks the simple question: "How far away from the beach do bathers become undies?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8
  - repolfx 8y ago
    For me it was simply that the shorts are a lot more comfortable than speedos. Speedos were never great.
- Qworg 8y ago
  Nice still had quite a few topless women of all ages on the private beaches when I visited in May.
  - dorchadas 8y ago
    Málaga did too when I was there for a few weeks in June.
- dmortin 8y ago
  As the article says: "Smartphones with cameras make risqué undress riskier." In the old times only people around you saw you. Today someone is there with a phone, takes a photo and the photo can be uploaded to the net for everyone to see.
  - KC8ZKF 8y ago
    Also,the major social media companies are rather prudish. Want to post a selfie from the beach? You better be covered up!
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      That's actually a good point, the ToS of American companies (and FCC policy) are based on what is, probably, a (prude, christian) minority, imposed on all Americans; and with their dominance over "social" media these rules are imposed on even more people.
      - d3sandoval 8y ago
        I wouldn't be too sure about that minority: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-had-100-people-charting-americans-religious-affiliations/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-h... And the data on sexting shows that it's very much a minority of Americans who send/receive nudes: http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexting-data-on-sendingreceiving-sexually-suggestive-nude-or-nearly-nude-photos-by-americans/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexti...
- sandworm101 8y ago
  >> None of the youth went topless. Digital cameras. Young girls don't mind being topless in front of the people on the beach. They do mind being photographed and finding themselves in some online collection being shared across the planet. Coupled with the risk of facial recognition or other tagging schemes, they really don't want their identities/addresses being shared alongside semi-nude pictures. Cameras now have a much greater "creep potential" than film. I would also suggest that a greater awareness of skin cancer means younger people generally cover up more, trickling down to lesser toplessness for both men and women.
  - bitL 8y ago
    It seems like young girls are actually trying to get photographed as revealing as they can get away with in their cultural space; only when they hit 23+ that changes completely.
- holografix 8y ago
  Maybe the fact that everyone has alight res camera in their pockets has something to do with it?
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Seems the United States of America is going for a cultural victory [1], doesn't it? Imagine, that you'd walk with your toddler on the beach in St. Tropez and your kid would see a nipple. That'd be downright traumatising. I mean, the deprivation of milk... Heck even Louis de Funès movies which took place in/near St. Tropez contained nudity. Now those would be 18+. A shame. Although I don't want my child naked on the beach (she's half a year old) not because I mind someone seeing her naked but because of all the cameras/smartphones. The loss of privacy is real, and its a direct effect due to the common practice of taking your smartphone -with quality camera these days- with you everywhere. [1] http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5) http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5)
  - paul7986 8y ago
    The US does have nude beaches too... one that’s even monitored by park rangers. Social media and the cameras in our pocket haven’t killed this beach I speak of’s Popularity. Overall we arent all that purdish.
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      Before smartphones, being naked on a beach is a social contract where you see each other naked at the price of being naked yourself. The ability to make pictures murks that social contract; it allows to "cheat". > Overall we arent all that purdish. Not everyone in the USA is, but do you remember the drama about Janet Jackson's nipple? Or how protective ratings in games and movies/series are regarding anything related to sex, yet violence seems totally OK? That's the double standard of the USA. It doesn't have to be this way. Before the innovation of smartphones with high quality cameras young children, here, used to be just naked on beach. It also used to be very normal to breastfeed in public. But there are various possible factors as the article describes. Since as you need to lock your smartphone up (not allowed to take with you) this doesn't explain why saunas are now more prudent.
  - sixdimensional 8y ago
    I'm going to make a very controversial point for the sake of argument, not one I am even sure I agree with. In my line of work, I don't see an increase in privacy happening, I see exactly the opposite despite increasing privacy measures. In fact, I see observation (video, audio, etc.) devices are literally going to be everywhere. They are in our devices, homes, cars, transportation vehicles (aircraft, public transit), cities, streets - there is nearly nowhere to hide - for any of us. Whether this is right or wrong may not matter any more unless it can be controlled. Can it be controlled? If it cannot be controlled, I see only one other option - and this is the sticky point... ..we have to be ready to face ourselves and each other publicly at all times. There will be little to no way to hide, to maintain privacy, etc. Our cultures will have to adapt, perhaps, at first, by trying to hide, enacting laws, etc. However, if it is inevitable that privacy cannot be maintained, then I argue, our culture will have to evolve. Perhaps the culture of the future will protect your child from sexual predators in a different way. Perhaps we will have equal potential to be seen naked publicly whether on the Internet, a nude beach, regardless of age, gender or ethnicity. To ensure the safety and security of society, people will have to change, even if our accepted norms of nudity, sexuality, etc. change. I can only hope that we as humans will be able to evolve to handle the changed paradigm and still ensure reasonable safety and security of society. I will say, I believe people today globally already have to be extremely more open-minded than ever before, on average, just to mentally cope with how we have changed as humans. Feel free to debate me here.. as I said, I am not sure if even I believe what I'm writing, but.. I'm trying to be open-minded about it.
- mradmin 8y ago
  I live in Barcelona (expat). On the "main" beach (Barceloneta) you'll find full on nudity, mixed with tourists, families and others who aren't nude. The thing is, truely no one cares. It is so not sexual, and i am yet to see someone treating it as sexual. I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Every beach I go to along the coast here (and up the Costa brava) I find nudity. Young, old, male, female, you name it. I expect to see peni, balls and breasts any beach I go to. I don't know what it is about this side of the world, but nudity is still completely separate from sex. No one will bat an eyelid if you decide to go nude. This is maybe a generalisation but after almost 3 years I'm yet to see people complain or be uncomfortable about the nudity here. I don't really have another other point, just mentioning my observations.
  - usaphp 8y ago
    > I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Because those who do record it are doing their best to make sure not get spotted
- usaphp 8y ago
  I think it’s because in the 80s there weren’t 17 y/o YouTube/instagram celebs running around taking pictures of everything and posting it on social media. One thing is to be topless on a beach and another is to end up in someone’s compilation nude video on Instagram
- awucs 8y ago
  I think most of these comments are missing the mark. There have always been cameras. As you say older people don't often care if they are naked. Younger people do because it isn't normal anymore. And that is because the influence of US media, and maybe especially social media, where you can't be naked. And if you are it is to sell something, or it is dirty. Freedom on the Internet is American freedom and that includes stolen celebrity pictures on the dark web (since apparently celebrities don't deserve actual privacy), but not showing your own nipple, even by mistake, on Instagram.
thaumasiotes 8y ago
Interesting contrast within the article: > Today, nudists complain, it is more difficult to separate nakedness from sex. French nudists say their movement’s younger members are overwhelmingly men; women are leery of being leered at. “Parts of Cap d’Agde have been completely sexualised,” says Wim Fisscher > If any space is more embarrassing for non-European tourists than a French nude beach, it is a German or Dutch sauna. They are unisex and naked by default. All bodies, thin, fat, young or old, are treated non-judgmentally. The one thing that will earn a disapproving stare is wearing clothing, because such modesty implies an inappropriate level of sexual consciousness. But then: > But the vision of nakedness as a demonstration of freedom and equality seems to be faring less well. Nudity has been central to European culture since the Greeks first sculpted Hermes. Hermes was a great choice for this sentence, but it makes me wonder whether the writer knew that. Representations of Hermes were often naked, or at least displaying genitals, but they certainly weren't conceptually separated from sex. A Herm had a large erect penis. There was a statue of ithyphallic Hermes in a famous temple of Demeter, and an accompanying legend saying that he'd gotten into that state by seeing Persephone.
- firasd 8y ago
  Also, at least in the last couple centuries, the most famous 'nudes' in Western art depict women. The gender disparity suggests to me that sexuality and nudity is not completely separate...
  - abrowne 8y ago
    Yeah, it's more like the context of "fine art" painting made inages of sexualized nude women acceptable in "polite society".
- AltruisticGap 8y ago
  > Today, nudists complain, it is more difficult to separate nakedness from sex Cf my other comment. THis is the left brain hemisphere at work. As people become more and more shifted into this mode of attention.. they lose sight of the whole. A women is a collection of parts. Head, arms, legs, breats etc. More worryingly of course, we see each other as things, and less as people. This is what the left brain hemisphere does, it gives an attention to the world that helps us navigate the world. It creates classes / categories like "tree", or "house", which are never the actuality which is domain of the right brain hemisphere (which deals with any actual instance in experience). And I think pornography, plus the obsession with social feeds, I mean let's be honest Instagram is pretty much porn. I had to cut out the app from my iPad because you'd tap one image than another and next thing you know you're looking at some seriously suggestive / sexualized content. This is a time where our sanity is truly in our hands. By the looks of it, not a whole lot of people care for sanity. But then again it has to do with age too. I can't see how I would have seen the bigger picture ten or twenty years ago. I'm just 44 now. I had to suffer a LOT , and observe myself a lot to see what's going on.
thedevil 8y ago
Anyone have a plausible hypothesis on what's driving the trend? The Economist is claiming "Today, nudists complain, it is more difficult to separate nakedness from sex." which seems plausible enough, but what would drive the change?
- sidstling 8y ago
  The fact that you’re only a click away from being on the internet has something to do with it, but the political pendulum is swinging to the right and no right-winger has ever burned her bra. I’m not trying to say that everyone has turned alt-right, or anything of the sort, but the general trend in society is increasingly conservative. With that comes more prudishness, but more importantly, higher expectations to be as expected of you and to do well. We’re far less tolerant of individual quirkyness today than we were 15 years ago, because you’re expected to be perfect, so you wouldn’t want to flaunt your flaws at the beach.
  - belorn 8y ago
    The political aspects is explored in the article and a lot of finger pointing is at the left and not the right. Single-gender bathing places and normalization of more covering bathing clothes is pushed by the progressive left in the name of tolerance. As can be expected the right is pushing the opposite direction, which is a bit ironic coming from a conservative side. I find it a quite interesting question if the political right are simply doing this because the left are pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, or if the conservative politics simply want to keep the exact same level of nudity as in the past. Not more or less.
    - sidstling 8y ago
      Well I’m Danish, and I can assure you that the only political push on this area is coming from the far left and feminists and it’s mainly focused on the fact that people are more body centric because they feel the need to be perfect. It’s not uncommon for young Danes to spend most of their free time either doing homework or working out. This is largely because we’ve collectively spent the past 17 years in what’s called “the competitive state”. Here we’ve been told we needed to work hard to survive the global competition. This has brought necessary reforms to our welfare state, but one side effect has been that young people getting stressed because they never feel like they are good enough. You’ll see similar stories around much of northern Europe. Sometimes you’ll see anti-immigration parties comment on how immigrants have affected personal freedom for women, like the article states, but then those same parties are pushing agendas to make public nudity illegal. So I wouldn’t say they were forerunners on the issue. This may be different in other countries of course.
coldtea 8y ago
>The home continent of public nakedness is growing more body Well, prudery is contagious, especially when it emanates from a dominant culture...
pjc50 8y ago
The smartphone has to play a large role in this. You can't guarantee that you're not going to end up on the internet forever. The politics is also different; nudism is no longer either associated with either progressive liberalisation or the vaguely fascist/eugenic parts of the physical fitness culture. It's just not an issue any more.
sandworm101 8y ago
Lol. An article about changing attitudes re nakedness, but no mention of hair or shaving. Young people today shave more than any past generation. Just look at the magazines. So a young person today, unclothed, is that little bit more "naked" today. It makes a difference twofold. Firstly, naked+shaved people are more exposed to everything from eyes to sun. Secondly, young people don't want to be naked when they haven't shaved. So getting naked is something you have to prepare for in a way past generations did not. A swimsuit is far easier than re-trimming every day. It is probably a bigger thing for guys. Hairy chests are larger than armpits. Hairy backs are ... difficult. T-shirts are more acceptable at the beach than bears.
- anothergoogler 8y ago
  > Young people today shave more than any past generation. Do you have a source for this?
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    If you are going to ask: "But an increased focus on hair removal has curbed cases of lice dramatically. In Australia, Sydney's largest sexual health clinic has not seen a case of pubic lice among women since 2008, according to Bloomberg." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brazilian-bikini-wax-making-crab-lice-endangered/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brazilian-bikini-wax-making-cra... "During the same 10-year period, the self-reported incidence of total pubic hair removal increased from 19% to 31%, and partial hair removal 23% to 56%." https://www.wired.com/2014/09/pubic-lice-still-not-going-extinct/ https://www.wired.com/2014/09/pubic-lice-still-not-going-ext...
    - anothergoogler 8y ago
      Your sources do not support your assertion that young people today are the most prolific shavers in history.
- wott 8y ago
  It is just ridiculous when I watch American TV series. Lonesome woodmen are body-built and have their chest shaved. Post-apocalypse survivors and cavemen are body-built and have their chest shaved. Zombies are body-built and have their chest shaved. Pirates are body-built and have their chest shaved. I guess aliens and werewolves are body-built and have their chest shaved too. They may have hirsute faces, but the torso is waxed. Whatever the time (past, present, future), the culture, the living conditions are supposed to be; the directors, the casting directors, and the actors do not care a bit: they will all have their chest waxed. That it makes no sense at all and is beyond ridiculous doesn't seem to bother them a bit.
blattimwind 8y ago
> In Germany it was everywhere: the country’s Freikörperkultur (“free body culture”, or FKK) encourages stripping off while gardening, playing sports or taking lunch breaks in the park. This seems rather uninformed to me.
- mcguire 8y ago
  Gardening? Nudity and lawn tools seem a bad combination.
  - dan-robertson 8y ago
    This is a “common sense” suggestion that falls at the first bit of actual common sense. The risk with tools is usually the fingers (ie near the sharp bits of the tool). I don’t know how you do gardening but I think one could garden in the nude for a lifetime without accidentally cutting something off. The other common tool would be a lawnmower and it’s quite common to mow the lawn wearing eg flip flops or sandals even though your feet are close to the blades. I don’t think they protect much compared to being barefoot. Protective clothing is different. But I think gardening nude is about replacing wearing shorts and maybe a shirt, as opposed to replacing wearing long sleeved clothes and thick gloves.
    - mcguire 8y ago
      It may just be me; I was crawling around under the rose bushes yesterday.
- teilo 8y ago
  It is. The relaxed attitude over nudity in Germany has never meant people are regularly nude in public.
deletemenow 8y ago
Couldn't be importing tens of thousands of people from a regressive country that forces women to wear veils and be escorted by a man everywhere they go has anything to do with it. Let's blame social media and smartphones! The absolute state of westerners.
- eesmith 8y ago
  I think it's less likely that Saudi Arabian immigrants are the reason for the gradual change over the last few decades, which it seems you are suggesting. That's the only country I know which fits your description. Isn't "importing" usually something we do with things, not people? Ahh, but your account name says you know you're trolling. If we're conjecturing, why couldn't it be the immigration of "tens of thousands" of Americans - a country which generally prohibits women from going topless and people from being nude in public?
21 8y ago
Some part of it (older people versus prudish younger people) was hilariously captured in Gym Wildlife: https://youtu.be/n1GUQVo1Lps?t=235 https://youtu.be/n1GUQVo1Lps?t=235
MrQuincle 8y ago
I don't think so. In the Netherlands you can still go to sauna as usual. There are plenty of nudist beaches and campings. A few months ago I went to a party in a club where in the end it was encouraged to wear as little as you'd like. You have still plenty of nude advertisement on television after midnight. You have billboards with nudes. There are TV programs like Adam zoekt Eva (Adam searches for Eve). There are popular clip sites (bit like ridiculous, but without being prude) like dumpert.nl with weakly "vrijmibo" with nudes. Two weeks ago I was in Zierikzee. Mayor was judging nudes with bodypaint. A lot of kids run around naked as well in the backyards when it is hot in summer. No big deal. No, there is no such thing as the North American shame for genitals or being nude.
- eesmith 8y ago
  I believe a more relevant observation is: How many women go topless in non-nudist areas? In Florida, where I grew up, it was common in the 1980s to hear about European women visiting the beach and not realizing that women were required to cover their breasts. From what I understand, it's now uncommon in many parts of Europe where it once was common. What you describe is not casual nudity that Europe (in my American viewpoint) was known for. Compare what you wrote with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freik%C3%B6rperkultur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freik%C3%B6rperkultur - being nude without direct relationship to sexuality. As the Economist writes, "stripping off while gardening, playing sports or taking lunch breaks in the park." Advertisements, judging nudes, etc. are saying that being nude is not usual.
  - MrQuincle 8y ago
    At times it is usual, at times it is casual, at times it is sexual. Nice perspective: http://theswaggernews.typepad.com/mothertongue/2014/10/why-the-dutch-go-topless-and-americans-dont.html http://theswaggernews.typepad.com/mothertongue/2014/10/why-t...
    - eesmith 8y ago
      That link agrees with the Economists' observation of the decline in casual nudity: "I still live in Holland, but very few women go topless anymore. Topless just isn't cool. It's not considered very classy, much less sexy or erotic in any way. Although the topless trend has subsided greatly since I first came to this country, the Dutch attitude about the human body has not." The author writes "Our Anglo-Saxon squeamishness with nudity and bodily functions started sometime between the Middle-Ages and the Victorians and it has continued ever since." and "I still get a wee bit queasy when the soccer coaches require the 9 and 10 year olds to take group showers after the games." I do not believe the author is aware of changes in US views of nudity even over the last couple of generations. For generations, children swam nude in indoor pools in the US. Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nude_swimming#Indoor_pools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nude_swimming#Indoor_pools : "The 1937 Administration of Health and Physical Recreation training manual stated, "Nude bathing for boys is practiced universally, in a few schools girls may swim nude and this is the most sanitary method." Elsewhere on that page points out "In America, skinny dipping by boys [in the late 1800s] was common." It also suggests that the 'squeamishness with nudity' was due to the 'rise of the influence of Christian Evangelicals' during the Victorian era.
belorn 8y ago
The change is very noticeable in public bathhouses here in Sweden. It used to be that one day in the week had bath clothes as optional, while now we have instead separate men and women days in order to be more inclusive to cultures where women don't feel confident to be in swim clothes in the same building (The official written statement). As the article points out historically nudism used to been a progressive cause where the conservative right was against it, while today those positions has almost switched sides. I have yet to see a Swedish politician that both support nudist and Muslim to choose what clothes they want to use in public spaces, even if occasionally someone slip their tongue and say things like "Neither government or corporation should decide what clothes people should wear". The smartphone argument that the article brings up sounds wrong. While it could be true for a beach, not many would voluntary bring expensive electronics to a sauna and most bathhouses has now days a ban for it anyway. Relax areas want to keep noise and photoing down, while other areas which allow kids want parents to keep track of their children and reduce the risk of drowning. If smartphones with cameras was a major contributors to this cultural change then we should expect to see a much small impact for saunas and public bathhouses that forbid smartphones, and yet I doubt the data support that.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  > not many would voluntary bring expensive electronics to a sauna You haven't seen the people who use the sauna at the gym I used to go to, then. They always freaked out at me for not bringing my phone/headphones in and just using a small hand-held timer to make sure I didn't stay too long... They also got mad because it made me want to talk too.
antisthenes 8y ago
With the obesity rates being what they are in the developed world, I'm not sure that's quite a bad thing. I have a few theories on why more people are covering up, but I'm going to go the self-censorship route here on HN and avoid stating them to avoid a flame war.

56 points by kylebarron 8y ago

I lived on the French Riviera in the 80s. Nearly all European women were topless at the beach, and in St. Tropez, there was full nudity. I recently visited, and the only topless women were older. None of the youth went topless. Fewer exposed breasts in advertising as well. No idea the cause, probably, instant global media has made them self-consciously realize few countries are that permissive.

mc32 8y ago
Or maybe it’s the ogling tourists who are not used to this who are turning them off —by sexualizing the custom. Or you may be right that maybe they are finding out this is not the global normal—altho I don’t think that would affect their attitude. Or as alluded to, maybe it's just the sexualization of nakedness.
- qaq 8y ago
  Or maybe there is increase of people in these places from cultures where a woman would get stoned for less, but that would be a very un-PC premise.
  - frostburg 8y ago
    Immigrants are basically socially invisible in that sort of context, they have no ability to exert social pressure whatsoever. It would be obvious to anyone actually living here that you're simply wrong.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Tell that to immigrants that followed my friend in a public street at around 10pm and tried to shamed her "why are you wearing this skirt" and such last month. And she was not even that provocatively dressed (way less than the average working class girl -- what english would call a "chav" -- in her late teens going out for a drink on friday/saturday)
      - frostburg 8y ago
        Where did this happen? Even if it actually happened, do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society?
        TangoTrotFox 8y ago
        Changing behavior and changing attitude are not the same thing. If you would like to go e.g. topless, but have concerns about the behaviors or peoples around you then you haven't changed your attitude - but you have changed your behavior. I'm not nit picking semantics as this is really a very important issue in society today -- you cannot derive how people think from how people act.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Even if it actually happened You could not believe me (as a random person on the web), but your phrasing implies that you also consider this somehow beyond the realm of possibility. It happened in Athens, if that matters. >do you seriously feel that this actually works in changing the attitude of a society Yeah, where's the surprise? Changes in demographics, like an increased presence of people with more conservative values in an area, can, and do, change the attitudes of a society, just like immigration can influence cuisine, music, religion, and other cultural aspects.
        frostburg 8y ago
        It's not beyond the realm of possibility; I recall a convert to Islam (that looked rather out of place with his red hair, etc.) in the UK trying to perform "sharia patrols" in the streets. I contest believing that young people going to beach in France or Italy would give even passing thought to what these people think or want, because it's completly outside the realm of my experience of the people that I've ever known to go to the beach, ever. A vastly more likely consideration is avoiding unwanted attention from people that approve of mostly undressed girls. I don't think that you understand (I don't know, maybe you live here?) how socially -isolated- immigrants are.
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    Let’s call a horse a horse and be clear that your “un-PC” is thinly veiled racism.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Or, you know, let's call a spade a space, and that the "thinly veiled racism" accusation is just a thought stopper, based on the a priori premise that a certain group of people can do no harm just because they're in distress themselves...
    - qaq 8y ago
      what race has to do with this? Go topless in say Iran and report back on your experience. You do realize that Iran is "land of the Aryans" literally so while anything you disagree with you can easily dismiss by labeling it racism in this case you gonna have pretty tough time.
- coldtea 8y ago
  It's also the prudish push against sexualization... Even in otherwise conservative countries (like Italy), sexualization, in media and in society at large, just wasn't a big deal in continental Europe... You could watch things in national broadcasting that would be off limits for Americans for example. And similarly for movies and books.
  - mc32 8y ago
    So I think there is this point where as an individual or society one can switch contexts easily and readily between apparent contradictions. In this case being naked is not the same as sex. Contrast that with the fetish parades or even some aspects of the pride parades where nakedness is sex. Anyhow, it looks like they are losjng their "innocent" context switching abilities due to “awareness” by media exposure, advertising, tourists, global norms, etc.
  - firasd 8y ago
    Yeah, I wonder to what extent this dovetails with things like sexualization being reduced in American media... but that said I don't think the reduction in sexualization should be dismissed as 'prudery'. For example, air hostesses used to be pretty sexualized in terms of their clothing, advertisements etc, but that's not necessarily a healthy work environment.
martythemaniak 8y ago
It applies to men as well, in a way. When I was a boy in 80s Europe, I wore a speedo at the beach, which was exactly what my dad and every other man wore. I don't think there was anything else you could buy and I never saw anyone wear shorts. I thought north America and their shorts weird at first, but I switched quickly. My friends were later scandalized when I told them I used to wear speedos. Today, when I go back, nearly everyone is wearing north American style shorts and very occasionally the tight long boxer like speedos. Anyway it could just be cyclical fashion.
- brightball 8y ago
  In the US if you are spotted wearing a speedo there are 3 possible reasons: 1. You are in a competitive swimming event 2. You are from another country 3. You are a college student trying to be funny
  - bitL 8y ago
    4. You are in South Beach Miami and couldn't care less
- SyneRyder 8y ago
  The same is true in Australia. While you can wear speedos, it's something of an unwritten rule that you shouldn't do it unless you're good looking. One of Australia's (many) ex Prime Ministers was widely derided for always wearing "budgie smugglers". There was a TV ad in Australia (originally from the UK) related to this. It asks the simple question: "How far away from the beach do bathers become undies?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brg_zHXIHC8
- repolfx 8y ago
  For me it was simply that the shorts are a lot more comfortable than speedos. Speedos were never great.
Qworg 8y ago
Nice still had quite a few topless women of all ages on the private beaches when I visited in May.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  Málaga did too when I was there for a few weeks in June.
dmortin 8y ago
As the article says: "Smartphones with cameras make risqué undress riskier." In the old times only people around you saw you. Today someone is there with a phone, takes a photo and the photo can be uploaded to the net for everyone to see.
- KC8ZKF 8y ago
  Also,the major social media companies are rather prudish. Want to post a selfie from the beach? You better be covered up!
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    That's actually a good point, the ToS of American companies (and FCC policy) are based on what is, probably, a (prude, christian) minority, imposed on all Americans; and with their dominance over "social" media these rules are imposed on even more people.
    - d3sandoval 8y ago
      I wouldn't be too sure about that minority: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-had-100-people-charting-americans-religious-affiliations/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/14/if-the-u-s-h... And the data on sexting shows that it's very much a minority of Americans who send/receive nudes: http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexting-data-on-sendingreceiving-sexually-suggestive-nude-or-nearly-nude-photos-by-americans/ http://www.pewinternet.org/2010/10/23/teens-adults-and-sexti...
sandworm101 8y ago
>> None of the youth went topless. Digital cameras. Young girls don't mind being topless in front of the people on the beach. They do mind being photographed and finding themselves in some online collection being shared across the planet. Coupled with the risk of facial recognition or other tagging schemes, they really don't want their identities/addresses being shared alongside semi-nude pictures. Cameras now have a much greater "creep potential" than film. I would also suggest that a greater awareness of skin cancer means younger people generally cover up more, trickling down to lesser toplessness for both men and women.
- bitL 8y ago
  It seems like young girls are actually trying to get photographed as revealing as they can get away with in their cultural space; only when they hit 23+ that changes completely.
holografix 8y ago
Maybe the fact that everyone has alight res camera in their pockets has something to do with it?
Fnoord 8y ago
Seems the United States of America is going for a cultural victory [1], doesn't it? Imagine, that you'd walk with your toddler on the beach in St. Tropez and your kid would see a nipple. That'd be downright traumatising. I mean, the deprivation of milk... Heck even Louis de Funès movies which took place in/near St. Tropez contained nudity. Now those would be 18+. A shame. Although I don't want my child naked on the beach (she's half a year old) not because I mind someone seeing her naked but because of all the cameras/smartphones. The loss of privacy is real, and its a direct effect due to the common practice of taking your smartphone -with quality camera these days- with you everywhere. [1] http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5) http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Cultural_victory_(Civ5)
- paul7986 8y ago
  The US does have nude beaches too... one that’s even monitored by park rangers. Social media and the cameras in our pocket haven’t killed this beach I speak of’s Popularity. Overall we arent all that purdish.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Before smartphones, being naked on a beach is a social contract where you see each other naked at the price of being naked yourself. The ability to make pictures murks that social contract; it allows to "cheat". > Overall we arent all that purdish. Not everyone in the USA is, but do you remember the drama about Janet Jackson's nipple? Or how protective ratings in games and movies/series are regarding anything related to sex, yet violence seems totally OK? That's the double standard of the USA. It doesn't have to be this way. Before the innovation of smartphones with high quality cameras young children, here, used to be just naked on beach. It also used to be very normal to breastfeed in public. But there are various possible factors as the article describes. Since as you need to lock your smartphone up (not allowed to take with you) this doesn't explain why saunas are now more prudent.
- sixdimensional 8y ago
  I'm going to make a very controversial point for the sake of argument, not one I am even sure I agree with. In my line of work, I don't see an increase in privacy happening, I see exactly the opposite despite increasing privacy measures. In fact, I see observation (video, audio, etc.) devices are literally going to be everywhere. They are in our devices, homes, cars, transportation vehicles (aircraft, public transit), cities, streets - there is nearly nowhere to hide - for any of us. Whether this is right or wrong may not matter any more unless it can be controlled. Can it be controlled? If it cannot be controlled, I see only one other option - and this is the sticky point... ..we have to be ready to face ourselves and each other publicly at all times. There will be little to no way to hide, to maintain privacy, etc. Our cultures will have to adapt, perhaps, at first, by trying to hide, enacting laws, etc. However, if it is inevitable that privacy cannot be maintained, then I argue, our culture will have to evolve. Perhaps the culture of the future will protect your child from sexual predators in a different way. Perhaps we will have equal potential to be seen naked publicly whether on the Internet, a nude beach, regardless of age, gender or ethnicity. To ensure the safety and security of society, people will have to change, even if our accepted norms of nudity, sexuality, etc. change. I can only hope that we as humans will be able to evolve to handle the changed paradigm and still ensure reasonable safety and security of society. I will say, I believe people today globally already have to be extremely more open-minded than ever before, on average, just to mentally cope with how we have changed as humans. Feel free to debate me here.. as I said, I am not sure if even I believe what I'm writing, but.. I'm trying to be open-minded about it.
mradmin 8y ago
I live in Barcelona (expat). On the "main" beach (Barceloneta) you'll find full on nudity, mixed with tourists, families and others who aren't nude. The thing is, truely no one cares. It is so not sexual, and i am yet to see someone treating it as sexual. I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Every beach I go to along the coast here (and up the Costa brava) I find nudity. Young, old, male, female, you name it. I expect to see peni, balls and breasts any beach I go to. I don't know what it is about this side of the world, but nudity is still completely separate from sex. No one will bat an eyelid if you decide to go nude. This is maybe a generalisation but after almost 3 years I'm yet to see people complain or be uncomfortable about the nudity here. I don't really have another other point, just mentioning my observations.
- usaphp 8y ago
  > I don't ever see people recoding the nudity. Because those who do record it are doing their best to make sure not get spotted
usaphp 8y ago
I think it’s because in the 80s there weren’t 17 y/o YouTube/instagram celebs running around taking pictures of everything and posting it on social media. One thing is to be topless on a beach and another is to end up in someone’s compilation nude video on Instagram
awucs 8y ago
I think most of these comments are missing the mark. There have always been cameras. As you say older people don't often care if they are naked. Younger people do because it isn't normal anymore. And that is because the influence of US media, and maybe especially social media, where you can't be naked. And if you are it is to sell something, or it is dirty. Freedom on the Internet is American freedom and that includes stolen celebrity pictures on the dark web (since apparently celebrities don't deserve actual privacy), but not showing your own nipple, even by mistake, on Instagram.

thaumasiotes 8y ago

Interesting contrast within the article: > Today, nudists complain, it is more difficult to separate nakedness from sex. French nudists say their movement’s younger members are overwhelmingly men; women are leery of being leered at. “Parts of Cap d’Agde have been completely sexualised,” says Wim Fisscher > If any space is more embarrassing for non-European tourists than a French nude beach, it is a German or Dutch sauna. They are unisex and naked by default. All bodies, thin, fat, young or old, are treated non-judgmentally. The one thing that will earn a disapproving stare is wearing clothing, because such modesty implies an inappropriate level of sexual consciousness. But then: > But the vision of nakedness as a demonstration of freedom and equality seems to be faring less well. Nudity has been central to European culture since the Greeks first sculpted Hermes. Hermes was a great choice for this sentence, but it makes me wonder whether the writer knew that. Representations of Hermes were often naked, or at least displaying genitals, but they certainly weren't conceptually separated from sex. A Herm had a large erect penis. There was a statue of ithyphallic Hermes in a famous temple of Demeter, and an accompanying legend saying that he'd gotten into that state by seeing Persephone.

firasd 8y ago
Also, at least in the last couple centuries, the most famous 'nudes' in Western art depict women. The gender disparity suggests to me that sexuality and nudity is not completely separate...
- abrowne 8y ago
  Yeah, it's more like the context of "fine art" painting made inages of sexualized nude women acceptable in "polite society".
AltruisticGap 8y ago
> Today, nudists complain, it is more difficult to separate nakedness from sex Cf my other comment. THis is the left brain hemisphere at work. As people become more and more shifted into this mode of attention.. they lose sight of the whole. A women is a collection of parts. Head, arms, legs, breats etc. More worryingly of course, we see each other as things, and less as people. This is what the left brain hemisphere does, it gives an attention to the world that helps us navigate the world. It creates classes / categories like "tree", or "house", which are never the actuality which is domain of the right brain hemisphere (which deals with any actual instance in experience). And I think pornography, plus the obsession with social feeds, I mean let's be honest Instagram is pretty much porn. I had to cut out the app from my iPad because you'd tap one image than another and next thing you know you're looking at some seriously suggestive / sexualized content. This is a time where our sanity is truly in our hands. By the looks of it, not a whole lot of people care for sanity. But then again it has to do with age too. I can't see how I would have seen the bigger picture ten or twenty years ago. I'm just 44 now. I had to suffer a LOT , and observe myself a lot to see what's going on.

thedevil 8y ago

Anyone have a plausible hypothesis on what's driving the trend? The Economist is claiming "Today, nudists complain, it is more difficult to separate nakedness from sex." which seems plausible enough, but what would drive the change?

sidstling 8y ago
The fact that you’re only a click away from being on the internet has something to do with it, but the political pendulum is swinging to the right and no right-winger has ever burned her bra. I’m not trying to say that everyone has turned alt-right, or anything of the sort, but the general trend in society is increasingly conservative. With that comes more prudishness, but more importantly, higher expectations to be as expected of you and to do well. We’re far less tolerant of individual quirkyness today than we were 15 years ago, because you’re expected to be perfect, so you wouldn’t want to flaunt your flaws at the beach.
- belorn 8y ago
  The political aspects is explored in the article and a lot of finger pointing is at the left and not the right. Single-gender bathing places and normalization of more covering bathing clothes is pushed by the progressive left in the name of tolerance. As can be expected the right is pushing the opposite direction, which is a bit ironic coming from a conservative side. I find it a quite interesting question if the political right are simply doing this because the left are pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, or if the conservative politics simply want to keep the exact same level of nudity as in the past. Not more or less.
  - sidstling 8y ago
    Well I’m Danish, and I can assure you that the only political push on this area is coming from the far left and feminists and it’s mainly focused on the fact that people are more body centric because they feel the need to be perfect. It’s not uncommon for young Danes to spend most of their free time either doing homework or working out. This is largely because we’ve collectively spent the past 17 years in what’s called “the competitive state”. Here we’ve been told we needed to work hard to survive the global competition. This has brought necessary reforms to our welfare state, but one side effect has been that young people getting stressed because they never feel like they are good enough. You’ll see similar stories around much of northern Europe. Sometimes you’ll see anti-immigration parties comment on how immigrants have affected personal freedom for women, like the article states, but then those same parties are pushing agendas to make public nudity illegal. So I wouldn’t say they were forerunners on the issue. This may be different in other countries of course.

coldtea 8y ago

>The home continent of public nakedness is growing more body Well, prudery is contagious, especially when it emanates from a dominant culture...

pjc50 8y ago

The smartphone has to play a large role in this. You can't guarantee that you're not going to end up on the internet forever. The politics is also different; nudism is no longer either associated with either progressive liberalisation or the vaguely fascist/eugenic parts of the physical fitness culture. It's just not an issue any more.

sandworm101 8y ago

Lol. An article about changing attitudes re nakedness, but no mention of hair or shaving. Young people today shave more than any past generation. Just look at the magazines. So a young person today, unclothed, is that little bit more "naked" today. It makes a difference twofold. Firstly, naked+shaved people are more exposed to everything from eyes to sun. Secondly, young people don't want to be naked when they haven't shaved. So getting naked is something you have to prepare for in a way past generations did not. A swimsuit is far easier than re-trimming every day. It is probably a bigger thing for guys. Hairy chests are larger than armpits. Hairy backs are ... difficult. T-shirts are more acceptable at the beach than bears.

anothergoogler 8y ago
> Young people today shave more than any past generation. Do you have a source for this?
- sandworm101 8y ago
  If you are going to ask: "But an increased focus on hair removal has curbed cases of lice dramatically. In Australia, Sydney's largest sexual health clinic has not seen a case of pubic lice among women since 2008, according to Bloomberg." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brazilian-bikini-wax-making-crab-lice-endangered/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brazilian-bikini-wax-making-cra... "During the same 10-year period, the self-reported incidence of total pubic hair removal increased from 19% to 31%, and partial hair removal 23% to 56%." https://www.wired.com/2014/09/pubic-lice-still-not-going-extinct/ https://www.wired.com/2014/09/pubic-lice-still-not-going-ext...
  - anothergoogler 8y ago
    Your sources do not support your assertion that young people today are the most prolific shavers in history.
wott 8y ago
It is just ridiculous when I watch American TV series. Lonesome woodmen are body-built and have their chest shaved. Post-apocalypse survivors and cavemen are body-built and have their chest shaved. Zombies are body-built and have their chest shaved. Pirates are body-built and have their chest shaved. I guess aliens and werewolves are body-built and have their chest shaved too. They may have hirsute faces, but the torso is waxed. Whatever the time (past, present, future), the culture, the living conditions are supposed to be; the directors, the casting directors, and the actors do not care a bit: they will all have their chest waxed. That it makes no sense at all and is beyond ridiculous doesn't seem to bother them a bit.

blattimwind 8y ago

> In Germany it was everywhere: the country’s Freikörperkultur (“free body culture”, or FKK) encourages stripping off while gardening, playing sports or taking lunch breaks in the park. This seems rather uninformed to me.

mcguire 8y ago
Gardening? Nudity and lawn tools seem a bad combination.
- dan-robertson 8y ago
  This is a “common sense” suggestion that falls at the first bit of actual common sense. The risk with tools is usually the fingers (ie near the sharp bits of the tool). I don’t know how you do gardening but I think one could garden in the nude for a lifetime without accidentally cutting something off. The other common tool would be a lawnmower and it’s quite common to mow the lawn wearing eg flip flops or sandals even though your feet are close to the blades. I don’t think they protect much compared to being barefoot. Protective clothing is different. But I think gardening nude is about replacing wearing shorts and maybe a shirt, as opposed to replacing wearing long sleeved clothes and thick gloves.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    It may just be me; I was crawling around under the rose bushes yesterday.
teilo 8y ago
It is. The relaxed attitude over nudity in Germany has never meant people are regularly nude in public.

deletemenow 8y ago

Couldn't be importing tens of thousands of people from a regressive country that forces women to wear veils and be escorted by a man everywhere they go has anything to do with it. Let's blame social media and smartphones! The absolute state of westerners.

eesmith 8y ago
I think it's less likely that Saudi Arabian immigrants are the reason for the gradual change over the last few decades, which it seems you are suggesting. That's the only country I know which fits your description. Isn't "importing" usually something we do with things, not people? Ahh, but your account name says you know you're trolling. If we're conjecturing, why couldn't it be the immigration of "tens of thousands" of Americans - a country which generally prohibits women from going topless and people from being nude in public?

21 8y ago

Some part of it (older people versus prudish younger people) was hilariously captured in Gym Wildlife: https://youtu.be/n1GUQVo1Lps?t=235 https://youtu.be/n1GUQVo1Lps?t=235

MrQuincle 8y ago

I don't think so. In the Netherlands you can still go to sauna as usual. There are plenty of nudist beaches and campings. A few months ago I went to a party in a club where in the end it was encouraged to wear as little as you'd like. You have still plenty of nude advertisement on television after midnight. You have billboards with nudes. There are TV programs like Adam zoekt Eva (Adam searches for Eve). There are popular clip sites (bit like ridiculous, but without being prude) like dumpert.nl with weakly "vrijmibo" with nudes. Two weeks ago I was in Zierikzee. Mayor was judging nudes with bodypaint. A lot of kids run around naked as well in the backyards when it is hot in summer. No big deal. No, there is no such thing as the North American shame for genitals or being nude.

eesmith 8y ago
I believe a more relevant observation is: How many women go topless in non-nudist areas? In Florida, where I grew up, it was common in the 1980s to hear about European women visiting the beach and not realizing that women were required to cover their breasts. From what I understand, it's now uncommon in many parts of Europe where it once was common. What you describe is not casual nudity that Europe (in my American viewpoint) was known for. Compare what you wrote with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freik%C3%B6rperkultur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freik%C3%B6rperkultur - being nude without direct relationship to sexuality. As the Economist writes, "stripping off while gardening, playing sports or taking lunch breaks in the park." Advertisements, judging nudes, etc. are saying that being nude is not usual.
- MrQuincle 8y ago
  At times it is usual, at times it is casual, at times it is sexual. Nice perspective: http://theswaggernews.typepad.com/mothertongue/2014/10/why-the-dutch-go-topless-and-americans-dont.html http://theswaggernews.typepad.com/mothertongue/2014/10/why-t...
  - eesmith 8y ago
    That link agrees with the Economists' observation of the decline in casual nudity: "I still live in Holland, but very few women go topless anymore. Topless just isn't cool. It's not considered very classy, much less sexy or erotic in any way. Although the topless trend has subsided greatly since I first came to this country, the Dutch attitude about the human body has not." The author writes "Our Anglo-Saxon squeamishness with nudity and bodily functions started sometime between the Middle-Ages and the Victorians and it has continued ever since." and "I still get a wee bit queasy when the soccer coaches require the 9 and 10 year olds to take group showers after the games." I do not believe the author is aware of changes in US views of nudity even over the last couple of generations. For generations, children swam nude in indoor pools in the US. Quoting from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nude_swimming#Indoor_pools https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nude_swimming#Indoor_pools : "The 1937 Administration of Health and Physical Recreation training manual stated, "Nude bathing for boys is practiced universally, in a few schools girls may swim nude and this is the most sanitary method." Elsewhere on that page points out "In America, skinny dipping by boys [in the late 1800s] was common." It also suggests that the 'squeamishness with nudity' was due to the 'rise of the influence of Christian Evangelicals' during the Victorian era.

belorn 8y ago

The change is very noticeable in public bathhouses here in Sweden. It used to be that one day in the week had bath clothes as optional, while now we have instead separate men and women days in order to be more inclusive to cultures where women don't feel confident to be in swim clothes in the same building (The official written statement). As the article points out historically nudism used to been a progressive cause where the conservative right was against it, while today those positions has almost switched sides. I have yet to see a Swedish politician that both support nudist and Muslim to choose what clothes they want to use in public spaces, even if occasionally someone slip their tongue and say things like "Neither government or corporation should decide what clothes people should wear". The smartphone argument that the article brings up sounds wrong. While it could be true for a beach, not many would voluntary bring expensive electronics to a sauna and most bathhouses has now days a ban for it anyway. Relax areas want to keep noise and photoing down, while other areas which allow kids want parents to keep track of their children and reduce the risk of drowning. If smartphones with cameras was a major contributors to this cultural change then we should expect to see a much small impact for saunas and public bathhouses that forbid smartphones, and yet I doubt the data support that.

dorchadas 8y ago
> not many would voluntary bring expensive electronics to a sauna You haven't seen the people who use the sauna at the gym I used to go to, then. They always freaked out at me for not bringing my phone/headphones in and just using a small hand-held timer to make sure I didn't stay too long... They also got mad because it made me want to talk too.

antisthenes 8y ago

With the obesity rates being what they are in the developed world, I'm not sure that's quite a bad thing. I have a few theories on why more people are covering up, but I'm going to go the self-censorship route here on HN and avoid stating them to avoid a flame war.