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I think there is something misleading about comparing high cuisine with middling cuisine. Like when people compare French and British cuisine: the former develo

by carlob 8y ago

I think there is something misleading about comparing high cuisine with middling cuisine. Like when people compare French and British cuisine: the former developed as the cuisine of kings in the 16-17th century and then kind of trickled down to expensive restaurants, while the latter developed during the industrial revolution and was something that every salaried man could afford to eat at home. A similar story happened with communist cuisine: as a matter of fact most people were not eating that well before WWII, and for them communist cuisine was definitely an improvement. The majority of the population could not afford restaurants anyway. If you're interested in this kind of topics there is "Cuisine and Empire", by Rachel Laudan (that's where I took most of the ideas).

macspoofing 8y ago
>A similar story happened with communist cuisine Let's be clear about this though. The communist government mandated the specific recipes. It wasn't something that developed organically.
- david927 8y ago
  No, the recipes were organic, they just mandated that it would be a high level of ingredients and portions for school and work cafeterias.
- vetinari 8y ago
  While we are clearing things up: the purpose of specific recipes was standardization and quality control. The purpose of ČSN was something like ISO today.
  - david927 8y ago
    The author was quite confused with a lot of the facts. (She had the Germans invade a year late. Dr. Thorne is the Academic Director at NYU Prague.) The topic is interesting; it deserves an author with at least a cursory understanding of the subject matter.
  - macspoofing 8y ago
    No it wasn't. There is always a level of social engineering and control behind decisions like that from communist government. Not to mention that it would have been intimately tied to a deeply flawed economic model (which resulted in predictable outcomes like shortages AND rationing, which then resulted in more direct government control) and pure corruption with decisions benefitting party-connected individuals. It is nothing like ISO.
    - vetinari 8y ago
      Yes it is. Your post is reflection of your opinion of the system, formed by whatever means, but it hasn't shown any sign of trying to understand the problem that the system was solving. In this case, how to make sure an unified, standardized product is being produced. After 1989, many foods that were produced by these recipes (ČSN means Czechoslovak State Norms) went downhill quality-wise, by trying to make it cheaper to produce (by changing the ingredient mix in favour of the cheaper ingredients, using cheaper substitutes, etc). How do I know? I was born, raised and lived in that system. I've seen it firsthand.
      - macspoofing 8y ago
        >...but it hasn't shown any sign of trying to understand the problem that the system was solving. In this case, how to make sure an unified, standardized product is being produced. Yes. They were trying to solve a non-issue in a way that aligned with the ideological (social and economic) position of the communist movement. I get it. I just refuse to interpret those kind of actions in a charitable light by linking them to modern professional organizations that create voluntary standards. It's similar to looking at the way the Venezuelan government destroyed their economy and arguing that it is no different from typical social welfare policy of a Western market-based nation because it was all done to combat poverty or something. It's pure distortion to interpret this cookbook as merely a quality or standards measure. It misses the mark and distorts the reality of why it existed. >How do I know? I was born, raised and lived in that system. I grew up in Eastern Europe. I've seen it first-hand as well. I understand that not every law or regulation was meant to be push an ideological position but let's be clear, it is no coincidence that the identified problem and the particular solution on this matter just so happen to neatly align with ideological considerations. Considerations like: 1) top-down regulation that mandated what a 'real' Czech meal is. 2) needing to wait years for permission to deviate from the official recipes. 3) maintaining the system long past the original problem (if it ever existed) became a complete non-issue. 4) mandating meals that align with the optics of what a 'proletariat' meal should be. 5) aligning this policy with economic policies that combat self-inflicted problems of shortages, inflation, lack of external trade. etc,etc,etc >many foods that were produced by these recipes (ČSN means Czechoslovak State Norms) went downhill quality-wise Maybe, but I think even that interpretation is flawed. What you interpret as quality going 'downhill', is really a product stratified across different price/quality levels to cater to different markets. You can get high-quality meals for more money, and lower-quality meals for less money. That does not mean quality went down, it means choices increased when a suffocating and market-distorting regulation is lifted.
rjsw 8y ago
The average British diet improved during WWII too, rationing and British Restaurants [1] made sure that people were eating the correct kind of things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant

by carlob 8y ago

macspoofing 8y ago

>A similar story happened with communist cuisine Let's be clear about this though. The communist government mandated the specific recipes. It wasn't something that developed organically.

david927 8y ago
No, the recipes were organic, they just mandated that it would be a high level of ingredients and portions for school and work cafeterias.
vetinari 8y ago
While we are clearing things up: the purpose of specific recipes was standardization and quality control. The purpose of ČSN was something like ISO today.
- david927 8y ago
  The author was quite confused with a lot of the facts. (She had the Germans invade a year late. Dr. Thorne is the Academic Director at NYU Prague.) The topic is interesting; it deserves an author with at least a cursory understanding of the subject matter.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  No it wasn't. There is always a level of social engineering and control behind decisions like that from communist government. Not to mention that it would have been intimately tied to a deeply flawed economic model (which resulted in predictable outcomes like shortages AND rationing, which then resulted in more direct government control) and pure corruption with decisions benefitting party-connected individuals. It is nothing like ISO.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Yes it is. Your post is reflection of your opinion of the system, formed by whatever means, but it hasn't shown any sign of trying to understand the problem that the system was solving. In this case, how to make sure an unified, standardized product is being produced. After 1989, many foods that were produced by these recipes (ČSN means Czechoslovak State Norms) went downhill quality-wise, by trying to make it cheaper to produce (by changing the ingredient mix in favour of the cheaper ingredients, using cheaper substitutes, etc). How do I know? I was born, raised and lived in that system. I've seen it firsthand.
    - macspoofing 8y ago
      >...but it hasn't shown any sign of trying to understand the problem that the system was solving. In this case, how to make sure an unified, standardized product is being produced. Yes. They were trying to solve a non-issue in a way that aligned with the ideological (social and economic) position of the communist movement. I get it. I just refuse to interpret those kind of actions in a charitable light by linking them to modern professional organizations that create voluntary standards. It's similar to looking at the way the Venezuelan government destroyed their economy and arguing that it is no different from typical social welfare policy of a Western market-based nation because it was all done to combat poverty or something. It's pure distortion to interpret this cookbook as merely a quality or standards measure. It misses the mark and distorts the reality of why it existed. >How do I know? I was born, raised and lived in that system. I grew up in Eastern Europe. I've seen it first-hand as well. I understand that not every law or regulation was meant to be push an ideological position but let's be clear, it is no coincidence that the identified problem and the particular solution on this matter just so happen to neatly align with ideological considerations. Considerations like: 1) top-down regulation that mandated what a 'real' Czech meal is. 2) needing to wait years for permission to deviate from the official recipes. 3) maintaining the system long past the original problem (if it ever existed) became a complete non-issue. 4) mandating meals that align with the optics of what a 'proletariat' meal should be. 5) aligning this policy with economic policies that combat self-inflicted problems of shortages, inflation, lack of external trade. etc,etc,etc >many foods that were produced by these recipes (ČSN means Czechoslovak State Norms) went downhill quality-wise Maybe, but I think even that interpretation is flawed. What you interpret as quality going 'downhill', is really a product stratified across different price/quality levels to cater to different markets. You can get high-quality meals for more money, and lower-quality meals for less money. That does not mean quality went down, it means choices increased when a suffocating and market-distorting regulation is lifted.

rjsw 8y ago

The average British diet improved during WWII too, rationing and British Restaurants [1] made sure that people were eating the correct kind of things. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Restaurant