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It's bothering me that Geoff introduced Paul as "the founder" and Paul just kind of went with it. It was a small moment but these sorts of details matter becaus

It's bothering me that Geoff introduced Paul as "the founder" and Paul just kind of went with it. It was a small moment but these sorts of details matter because they can contribute to unintended historical revisionism. A YouTube annotation overlay might be appreciated by the other founders.

bing_dai 8y ago
I completely agree. It bothered me as well.
- peteforde 8y ago
  It's fascinating and a little sad that anyone who spoke up about this point was downvoted into oblivion... even though my point is entirely valid and easy to verify. I don't think PG would disagree with my suggestion, and he certainly doesn't need people to defend him.
  - dang 8y ago
    Perhaps it's because you/they are focusing on some minuscule act of wording instead of on anything significant in the video. We don't need to play the internet gotcha game on HN. In fact, it's off topic by the site guidelines, since it isn't done out of intellectual curiosity (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
    - peteforde 8y ago
      I appreciate the reply. I'll accept your wisdom on the subject, given your role and perspective. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I tried.
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      You might think it’s minutia for Jessica to be erased, but obviously many of us disagree. I think it’s a powerful data point to see Paul quietly accept the the title of Founder. It is evidence he’s not in the habit of correcting people who don’t see him as a co-founder with a woman. It speaks to his mindset. And perhaps this thread speaks to yours as well. It’s not about some kind of gotcha game. We are legitimately interested in how deeply both of you are engaged with this subject. Personally, I don’t mind if you and Paul don’t think it’s a serious issue. I don’t think you do. You are under no obligation to care. But I think we should be free to discuss the possibility that you don’t. And to notice evidence that you don’t. This is the kind of thinking that makes me realize YC isn’t a good fit for me. I think it benefits both me and YC for YC’s approach to these issues to be discussed. You don’t want people like me to apply, it would be bad for the health of the program.
      - dang 8y ago
        It doesn't "speak to his mindset". You've simply cherry-picked that detail ("a powerful data point"!) against all evidence to the contrary. No one who really cared about pg's "mindset" would look at just a single use of the word 'the' which he didn't even say. If that isn't the internet gotcha game I don't know what is.
      - peteforde 8y ago
        I chose to see things from Dan's perspective because I trust that he's not an agitator and that there exists a large spectrum between intentional oversight and missed opportunity. Dan's point about this being unworthy of this much attention is correct. Ultimately, it's just not that big a deal and if it's enough to keep you from applying to YC, YC is probably not a good fit for you. You have to be able to see things from multiple perspectives if you're going to have the best chance at dodging blind spots. Things don't always have to be comfortable and if everyone is agreeing with you, it's possible that you're not moving forward. At any rate, I don't for a moment believe that PG would ever introduce himself as "the founder" and I hope that didn't come across.
colecut 8y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WO5kJChg3w&feature=youtu.be&t=672 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WO5kJChg3w&feature=youtu.be... He doesn't sound sorry =p But if he really did "choose" the other guys, then maybe calling him the founder isn't so wrong.
- sulam 8y ago
  He seems to be talking about Viaweb in the point you link to here?
  - colecut 8y ago
    ahh you are right. my mistake.
sulam 8y ago
FWIW pg is clear here that YC had 4 founders: http://www.paulgraham.com/jessica.html http://www.paulgraham.com/jessica.html
- 0xFFFF0000 8y ago
  still doesn't change what happened in the youtube video - just to be clear
  - tomhoward 8y ago
    PG has written very candidly of being uncomfortable speaking publicly [1]. As an uncomfortable public speaker myself, when I've been in that situation of being introduced at the beginning of a Q&A session, my mind is mostly occupied with mildly anxious thoughts about how I'm going to get through the talk without freezing up or saying something stupid. I'm not paying close attention to what the host is saying. It's worth considering that one of the reasons PG stepped away from being president of YC seemed to be that he got sick of having the minutiae of his words and actions scrutinised and presumed to be motivated by malice. There's a reason his preferred method of public communication is long-form essays. As the parent to your comment pointed out, he's been at pains to credit his co-founders in the past, and shows no signs of having an ego-driven need to be known as the sole founder of YC. Maybe give the guy a break? [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/speak.html http://www.paulgraham.com/speak.html
    - DanielBMarkham 8y ago
      I did a video series on programming a while back. I wasn't teaching. I was just sharing being a fanboy with some experts. Boy, did that suck. Every little thing that happened, I couldn't help but think through all the mistakes and omissions being made. I can't imagine doing the same thing at the scale of YC. I'll probably do it again. I love writing and expressing myself. But I can see where PG did the right thing to get out of the light a bit. I remember on HN the guy would say something like "It's raining outside" and 14 people would respond with misunderstandings, clarifications, arguments, nit-picking. At some audience level all in the same room, it becomes impossible to communicate back-and-forth. The long-form essay is probably best.
d0m 8y ago
Also, when you're being interviewed, how much should you interrupt the interviewee and nitpick on everything? I'd say Geoff made a mistake here and said "The founder" instead of "A co-founder" but was it worth interrupting the flow, etc?
- peteforde 8y ago
  I'm sorry, are you asking if Paul Graham is comfortable interrupting people and making clarifying statements? https://techcrunch.com/video/paul-grahams-office-hours-tips-for-startups/ https://techcrunch.com/video/paul-grahams-office-hours-tips-... Jump to 6:20 and tell me with a straight face that PG is concerned about interjection. He literally could have just chuckled and helpfully offered, "well... co-founder!" Here's the thing: I'm a PG fan and I'm not trying to be pedantic. Jessica has frequently written about how her role is misunderstood and unfortunately minimized, even though it's clear to anyone with life experience that she is the heart and soul of the operation. http://foundersatwork.posthaven.com/grow-the-puzzle-around-you http://foundersatwork.posthaven.com/grow-the-puzzle-around-y...
  - tomhoward 8y ago
    > “I'm not trying to be pedantic” Nobody likes to think of themselves as being pedantic. But people can choose to make an effort to avoid being pedantic. Instead you’ve chosen to use emotive words like “historical revisionism”, “fascinating”, “sad” and “oblivion” to create drama over something that, as I said in another comment, for all we know, PG may not have even properly heard. If you’re a PG fan, perhaps have a re-read of the “Life is Short” essay and take a moment to think about whether PG (and Jessica and the other YC founders) would think this discussion is the kind of thing life is or isn’t too short for.
    - peteforde 8y ago
      Fair enough. Thanks for the comment; I appreciate your perspective.
      - 8y ago

bing_dai 8y ago

I completely agree. It bothered me as well.

peteforde 8y ago
It's fascinating and a little sad that anyone who spoke up about this point was downvoted into oblivion... even though my point is entirely valid and easy to verify. I don't think PG would disagree with my suggestion, and he certainly doesn't need people to defend him.
- dang 8y ago
  Perhaps it's because you/they are focusing on some minuscule act of wording instead of on anything significant in the video. We don't need to play the internet gotcha game on HN. In fact, it's off topic by the site guidelines, since it isn't done out of intellectual curiosity (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
  - peteforde 8y ago
    I appreciate the reply. I'll accept your wisdom on the subject, given your role and perspective. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I tried.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    You might think it’s minutia for Jessica to be erased, but obviously many of us disagree. I think it’s a powerful data point to see Paul quietly accept the the title of Founder. It is evidence he’s not in the habit of correcting people who don’t see him as a co-founder with a woman. It speaks to his mindset. And perhaps this thread speaks to yours as well. It’s not about some kind of gotcha game. We are legitimately interested in how deeply both of you are engaged with this subject. Personally, I don’t mind if you and Paul don’t think it’s a serious issue. I don’t think you do. You are under no obligation to care. But I think we should be free to discuss the possibility that you don’t. And to notice evidence that you don’t. This is the kind of thinking that makes me realize YC isn’t a good fit for me. I think it benefits both me and YC for YC’s approach to these issues to be discussed. You don’t want people like me to apply, it would be bad for the health of the program.
    - dang 8y ago
      It doesn't "speak to his mindset". You've simply cherry-picked that detail ("a powerful data point"!) against all evidence to the contrary. No one who really cared about pg's "mindset" would look at just a single use of the word 'the' which he didn't even say. If that isn't the internet gotcha game I don't know what is.
    - peteforde 8y ago
      I chose to see things from Dan's perspective because I trust that he's not an agitator and that there exists a large spectrum between intentional oversight and missed opportunity. Dan's point about this being unworthy of this much attention is correct. Ultimately, it's just not that big a deal and if it's enough to keep you from applying to YC, YC is probably not a good fit for you. You have to be able to see things from multiple perspectives if you're going to have the best chance at dodging blind spots. Things don't always have to be comfortable and if everyone is agreeing with you, it's possible that you're not moving forward. At any rate, I don't for a moment believe that PG would ever introduce himself as "the founder" and I hope that didn't come across.

colecut 8y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WO5kJChg3w&feature=youtu.be&t=672 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WO5kJChg3w&feature=youtu.be... He doesn't sound sorry =p But if he really did "choose" the other guys, then maybe calling him the founder isn't so wrong.

sulam 8y ago
He seems to be talking about Viaweb in the point you link to here?
- colecut 8y ago
  ahh you are right. my mistake.

sulam 8y ago

FWIW pg is clear here that YC had 4 founders: http://www.paulgraham.com/jessica.html http://www.paulgraham.com/jessica.html

0xFFFF0000 8y ago
still doesn't change what happened in the youtube video - just to be clear
- tomhoward 8y ago
  PG has written very candidly of being uncomfortable speaking publicly [1]. As an uncomfortable public speaker myself, when I've been in that situation of being introduced at the beginning of a Q&A session, my mind is mostly occupied with mildly anxious thoughts about how I'm going to get through the talk without freezing up or saying something stupid. I'm not paying close attention to what the host is saying. It's worth considering that one of the reasons PG stepped away from being president of YC seemed to be that he got sick of having the minutiae of his words and actions scrutinised and presumed to be motivated by malice. There's a reason his preferred method of public communication is long-form essays. As the parent to your comment pointed out, he's been at pains to credit his co-founders in the past, and shows no signs of having an ego-driven need to be known as the sole founder of YC. Maybe give the guy a break? [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/speak.html http://www.paulgraham.com/speak.html
  - DanielBMarkham 8y ago
    I did a video series on programming a while back. I wasn't teaching. I was just sharing being a fanboy with some experts. Boy, did that suck. Every little thing that happened, I couldn't help but think through all the mistakes and omissions being made. I can't imagine doing the same thing at the scale of YC. I'll probably do it again. I love writing and expressing myself. But I can see where PG did the right thing to get out of the light a bit. I remember on HN the guy would say something like "It's raining outside" and 14 people would respond with misunderstandings, clarifications, arguments, nit-picking. At some audience level all in the same room, it becomes impossible to communicate back-and-forth. The long-form essay is probably best.

d0m 8y ago

Also, when you're being interviewed, how much should you interrupt the interviewee and nitpick on everything? I'd say Geoff made a mistake here and said "The founder" instead of "A co-founder" but was it worth interrupting the flow, etc?

peteforde 8y ago
I'm sorry, are you asking if Paul Graham is comfortable interrupting people and making clarifying statements? https://techcrunch.com/video/paul-grahams-office-hours-tips-for-startups/ https://techcrunch.com/video/paul-grahams-office-hours-tips-... Jump to 6:20 and tell me with a straight face that PG is concerned about interjection. He literally could have just chuckled and helpfully offered, "well... co-founder!" Here's the thing: I'm a PG fan and I'm not trying to be pedantic. Jessica has frequently written about how her role is misunderstood and unfortunately minimized, even though it's clear to anyone with life experience that she is the heart and soul of the operation. http://foundersatwork.posthaven.com/grow-the-puzzle-around-you http://foundersatwork.posthaven.com/grow-the-puzzle-around-y...
- tomhoward 8y ago
  > “I'm not trying to be pedantic” Nobody likes to think of themselves as being pedantic. But people can choose to make an effort to avoid being pedantic. Instead you’ve chosen to use emotive words like “historical revisionism”, “fascinating”, “sad” and “oblivion” to create drama over something that, as I said in another comment, for all we know, PG may not have even properly heard. If you’re a PG fan, perhaps have a re-read of the “Life is Short” essay and take a moment to think about whether PG (and Jessica and the other YC founders) would think this discussion is the kind of thing life is or isn’t too short for.
  - peteforde 8y ago
    Fair enough. Thanks for the comment; I appreciate your perspective.
    - 8y ago