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Although the title is not inaccurate, we don’t have all the details yet. “Apple self-driving car rear ended” would be a more accurate report.. especially consi

by mygo 8y ago

Although the title is not inaccurate, we don’t have all the details yet. “Apple self-driving car rear ended” would be a more accurate report.. especially considering what comes to mind for the average person when someone mentions a self-driving car in an accident.

riffic 8y ago
#CrashNotAccident https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/03/19/crashes-not-accidents https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/03/19/crashes-not-acc...
- tialaramex 8y ago
  No, they're accidents. The impetus behind trying to rename accidents is that Americans are perversely enthusiastic about revenge. Accepting that it was an accident doesn't stop us trying to ensure it doesn't happen again, that is indeed exactly what Accident Investigators are for, and you'll notice they aren't called "No, it wasn't an accident, it was a crash" Investigators. By re-framing this as "not an accident" we get to insist there's somebody to blame, and we can start looking for revenge. That won't do a thing to undo what happened or prevent it from happening again, it's one of our nastiest human traits and it needs to be fought, not supported by reinforcing it with language. This (random example from another open tab) is what investigating accidents looks like: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2018-near-miss-with-track-workers-at-pelaw-north-junction https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2018-near-miss-wit... The investigators wanted to understand everything that went wrong, and how it contributed to what happened (two people nearly got hit by a train), and then they used that information to recommend how to avoid it happening again.
  - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
    The crashes, not accidents talking point is heavily pushed by law enforcement, as well, because it aids in getting convictions. A jury that is primed to look for someone to blame in an accident is more likely to convict. Reminder that the conviction rate in the US is over 90%.
  - mygo 8y ago
    we don’t do revenge after car accidents. we’re a little more civil than that. we file an accident report with the police and then call the biggest personal injury attorney in town and sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages.
  - uresponsible 8y ago
    Accountability and revenge are not the same thing. In fact, accountability within a legal framework is one of the central developments of human civilization precisely because it preempts extra-legal vengeance. Now, I personally prefer the term collision to crash, but I despise the use of "accident" in the context of a motor vehicle collision. Maybe because I'm an optimist, I assume that the overwhelming majority of collisions are "accidental" only in the sense that the responsible operator is not acting with malicious. However, in the overwhelming majority of situations, they are not operating and/or maintaining their motor vehicle with due care, to the harm of those around them. I believe that use of the term "accident" connotes a lack of agency on the part of the motor vehicle operator, and discourages accountability. Accountability as deterrence is necessary because the consequence of reckless driving and poor maintenance are so dire. Of course, accountability for motor vehicle operators is not the only answer to improving safety - road and junction design play huge parts, and I'd love to see serious attention given to bad infrastructure as part of collision investigations, with follow-up and remediation. Unfortunately - and here is where we perhaps agree about accountability and negative incentives - the parties most commonly investigating motor vehicle collisions are rarely incentivized to look towards the contributions of infrastructure (as they are organs of the same government that operates the infrastructure.) It typically falls to citizen-activists to advocate for changes to road or junction design, which is a shame.
- mr_toad 8y ago
  Unintentional = accident. If it’s totally beyond anyone’s control it’s an act of god.
  - riffic 8y ago
    Most crashes/collisions are unintentional, but are the result of behaviors to be avoided.

by mygo 8y ago

riffic 8y ago

#CrashNotAccident https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/03/19/crashes-not-accidents https://daringfireball.net/linked/2018/03/19/crashes-not-acc...

tialaramex 8y ago
No, they're accidents. The impetus behind trying to rename accidents is that Americans are perversely enthusiastic about revenge. Accepting that it was an accident doesn't stop us trying to ensure it doesn't happen again, that is indeed exactly what Accident Investigators are for, and you'll notice they aren't called "No, it wasn't an accident, it was a crash" Investigators. By re-framing this as "not an accident" we get to insist there's somebody to blame, and we can start looking for revenge. That won't do a thing to undo what happened or prevent it from happening again, it's one of our nastiest human traits and it needs to be fought, not supported by reinforcing it with language. This (random example from another open tab) is what investigating accidents looks like: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2018-near-miss-with-track-workers-at-pelaw-north-junction https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-13-2018-near-miss-wit... The investigators wanted to understand everything that went wrong, and how it contributed to what happened (two people nearly got hit by a train), and then they used that information to recommend how to avoid it happening again.
- fucking_tragedy 8y ago
  The crashes, not accidents talking point is heavily pushed by law enforcement, as well, because it aids in getting convictions. A jury that is primed to look for someone to blame in an accident is more likely to convict. Reminder that the conviction rate in the US is over 90%.
- mygo 8y ago
  we don’t do revenge after car accidents. we’re a little more civil than that. we file an accident report with the police and then call the biggest personal injury attorney in town and sue for hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages.
- uresponsible 8y ago
  Accountability and revenge are not the same thing. In fact, accountability within a legal framework is one of the central developments of human civilization precisely because it preempts extra-legal vengeance. Now, I personally prefer the term collision to crash, but I despise the use of "accident" in the context of a motor vehicle collision. Maybe because I'm an optimist, I assume that the overwhelming majority of collisions are "accidental" only in the sense that the responsible operator is not acting with malicious. However, in the overwhelming majority of situations, they are not operating and/or maintaining their motor vehicle with due care, to the harm of those around them. I believe that use of the term "accident" connotes a lack of agency on the part of the motor vehicle operator, and discourages accountability. Accountability as deterrence is necessary because the consequence of reckless driving and poor maintenance are so dire. Of course, accountability for motor vehicle operators is not the only answer to improving safety - road and junction design play huge parts, and I'd love to see serious attention given to bad infrastructure as part of collision investigations, with follow-up and remediation. Unfortunately - and here is where we perhaps agree about accountability and negative incentives - the parties most commonly investigating motor vehicle collisions are rarely incentivized to look towards the contributions of infrastructure (as they are organs of the same government that operates the infrastructure.) It typically falls to citizen-activists to advocate for changes to road or junction design, which is a shame.
mr_toad 8y ago
Unintentional = accident. If it’s totally beyond anyone’s control it’s an act of god.
- riffic 8y ago
  Most crashes/collisions are unintentional, but are the result of behaviors to be avoided.