4 ms·

I've noticed this ability as well in other fields: it seems those at the very top (chess grandmasters, piano virtuosos, etc) have an incredible ability to remem

by prmph 8y ago

I've noticed this ability as well in other fields: it seems those at the very top (chess grandmasters, piano virtuosos, etc) have an incredible ability to remember the details of performances in their field. The question is: is it their existing recall abilities that (in part) helps them to get to the top, or is it the process of becoming that good that greatly enhances their memory?

maxxxxx 8y ago
I wonder if it's a function of being able to focus.
loblollyboy 8y ago
Yup - here is a cool one about how baseball players scan things with their eyes https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-pujols-gets-babe-ruth-test-at-washington-university/ https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-...
ehaliewicz2 8y ago
I'm sure a large part of it is improving your memory, but the very best in the world probably had some advantage to start off with. For example, if you start off learning a language, there are all kinds of tiny details to pronunciation that you don't even recognize and could never recall afterwards. If you try to repeat what someone's said, you might miss a lot of those details. But if you've become fluent at a native (or near-native) level, you've trained your brain to subconsciously recognize and focus on all of those details and can recite something that someone's said perfectly.
brandall10 8y ago
I have a feeling it's more adaptive than not. https://www.wired.com/2011/12/london-taxi-driver-memory/ https://www.wired.com/2011/12/london-taxi-driver-memory/
coliveira 8y ago
I think this is less spectacular than people believe. If you are extremely focused in a sport event, as is the case for top players and Formula 1 drivers, it is natural that they can remember details with precision. This would be far more difficult for mundane events.
- GW150914 8y ago
  I agree. It’s only impressive if their memory in other areas is at least average. If it’s just a matter of using all of your resources in one limited field then it’s far from impressive. Most people have a less singular focus, and it would be more helpful to compare total performance rather than comparing this one area.
  - prmph 8y ago
    The point is that such feats of memory do not necessarily have anything to do with the skill itself: a great F1 driver is a great F1 driver, irrespective of how well he/she remembers races; so why do such feats of recall come along for the ride (pun unintended)?
    - codyb 8y ago
      I'm not so sure that's true. I have a feeling when you're flying down the road at 200mph remembering every last detail of that course is particularly important. Similarly with basketball or any other highly curated group of individuals performing a skill.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      Driving is only a part of racing. Giving feedback to the team is at least as important so they can set up the car and develop it. I remember reading an interview with a driver who had tested a car together with Ayrton Senna (who became a superstar later). When the team asked him how the car was he gave a few pointers whereas Senna could describe every part of the car in every turn in detail. Guess who is the more valuable driver for the team? Good drivers have more sensors than others and they can record more data.
      - coliveira 8y ago
        There are two points there: one is the capacity to remember what happened. The other one, however, is the ability to convey this information to engineers. I believe people like Senna are superior not as much on recalling information, but on communicating this information to engineers. A driver with less communication abilities would be far less valuable to the team.
code_duck 8y ago
I think it’s a result of intensely experiencing the event as it happens, and recollecting it as vividly as possibly right away. Essentially they’re thinking hard about the process before, while, and after doing it. I have 20 years experience as a glassblower, and the apparent duration of the most intense parts has mentally expanded for me over time. Guitar playing is similar - my awareness while under pressure for improvisation or a slick solo has slowly changed over the years. The intensity of opening a wine glass foot is about the same as playing a quick improvised jazz solo. If you asked a musician how a performance went, they could probably tell you how it fell playing each line. Same with a glass collaboration – I can usually recall how making a piece went, but in a setting like a collaboration or competition, I would remember every part of making a 2 1/2 minute piece as if it was a 15 minute story. When you start out making cups, the process can quickly go wrong in a jumble when it is time to open the rim. The next time, you remember to avoid that mistake… but might make a different one. Or maybe make the same one again. Each time it’s 10 or 20 minutes until you can be at that point again... it reminds me of 8 bit games where you have to go through a level repeatedly to get to a difficult jump, and keep trying til you make it. Eventually, you start finishing the process, and after many repetitions can do it without thinking. After even longer you learn every microsecond of the process - with glass, the feel of the hot bubble folding over and turning from a sphere to a flat disc in about 800 milliseconds, as you spin it in the flame. That’s the part that expands mentally for me - the control during that time. One learns to not fail to pay close attention at that time. While these moments still feel like they are over in an instant, over time, my ability to make good decisions repeatedly while taking it in stride has increased. I’d sum it up as my level of overwhelmedness has gone down. It’s as if time is expanded, though it all still happens very quickly. Due to all the practice, my awareness stays active instead of being overwhelmed. This phenomenon could also show up in other activities like sports. Your question comes down to basically nature versus nurture, though. Do some people have innate talent, or does it come from training? It seems like the answer is both, of course. My analysis is that some people are better at releasing their minds to accept learning things. Then, it’s a matter of practice and experience. Anything eventually becomes commonplace.
pterhx 8y ago
In Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise, Ericsson had chess grandmasters look chess boards of real games, and they could recreate the board in a pretty short fashion. But when they took chess boards of randomly placed pieces, they could not remember the placement of pieces any better than a random group of people. The idea is that through practice, you develop the ability pattern match and chunk together the data into more cohesive blocks, and memory fewer of these blocks. The rough analogy in software is to take a quick look at some code and recognize the design patterns, and remember the design patterns used rather each individual character. In fact, words are a form of chunking -- we don't remember hundreds of character sequences, but we remember the words instead.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  It's probably like boxing a beginner. They do all kinds of weird stuff you never have seen and don't know how to categorize.
  - cepth 8y ago
    If you want to see what pterhx was referring to in action, National Geographic did a documentary featuring Susan Polgar a few years back. The relevant clip and timestamp are here: https://youtu.be/LdKHrxcpxrY?t=238 https://youtu.be/LdKHrxcpxrY?t=238. The difficulty in recalling nonsensical positions is not that it's like "boxing a beginner", it's that the pieces are literally placed in a way that the positions could not have been reached with legal moves. Analogously, remembering famous quotes or memorable phrases in a certain language is quite easy. If instead, you had to memorize a string of randomly placed words that did not follow established rules of grammar or sentence structure, it'd be a much harder task. Chunking is context and experience dependent.

by prmph 8y ago

maxxxxx 8y ago

I wonder if it's a function of being able to focus.

loblollyboy 8y ago

Yup - here is a cool one about how baseball players scan things with their eyes https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-pujols-gets-babe-ruth-test-at-washington-university/ https://source.wustl.edu/2006/08/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-...

ehaliewicz2 8y ago

I'm sure a large part of it is improving your memory, but the very best in the world probably had some advantage to start off with. For example, if you start off learning a language, there are all kinds of tiny details to pronunciation that you don't even recognize and could never recall afterwards. If you try to repeat what someone's said, you might miss a lot of those details. But if you've become fluent at a native (or near-native) level, you've trained your brain to subconsciously recognize and focus on all of those details and can recite something that someone's said perfectly.

brandall10 8y ago

I have a feeling it's more adaptive than not. https://www.wired.com/2011/12/london-taxi-driver-memory/ https://www.wired.com/2011/12/london-taxi-driver-memory/

coliveira 8y ago

I think this is less spectacular than people believe. If you are extremely focused in a sport event, as is the case for top players and Formula 1 drivers, it is natural that they can remember details with precision. This would be far more difficult for mundane events.

GW150914 8y ago
I agree. It’s only impressive if their memory in other areas is at least average. If it’s just a matter of using all of your resources in one limited field then it’s far from impressive. Most people have a less singular focus, and it would be more helpful to compare total performance rather than comparing this one area.
- prmph 8y ago
  The point is that such feats of memory do not necessarily have anything to do with the skill itself: a great F1 driver is a great F1 driver, irrespective of how well he/she remembers races; so why do such feats of recall come along for the ride (pun unintended)?
  - codyb 8y ago
    I'm not so sure that's true. I have a feeling when you're flying down the road at 200mph remembering every last detail of that course is particularly important. Similarly with basketball or any other highly curated group of individuals performing a skill.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    Driving is only a part of racing. Giving feedback to the team is at least as important so they can set up the car and develop it. I remember reading an interview with a driver who had tested a car together with Ayrton Senna (who became a superstar later). When the team asked him how the car was he gave a few pointers whereas Senna could describe every part of the car in every turn in detail. Guess who is the more valuable driver for the team? Good drivers have more sensors than others and they can record more data.
    - coliveira 8y ago
      There are two points there: one is the capacity to remember what happened. The other one, however, is the ability to convey this information to engineers. I believe people like Senna are superior not as much on recalling information, but on communicating this information to engineers. A driver with less communication abilities would be far less valuable to the team.

code_duck 8y ago

I think it’s a result of intensely experiencing the event as it happens, and recollecting it as vividly as possibly right away. Essentially they’re thinking hard about the process before, while, and after doing it. I have 20 years experience as a glassblower, and the apparent duration of the most intense parts has mentally expanded for me over time. Guitar playing is similar - my awareness while under pressure for improvisation or a slick solo has slowly changed over the years. The intensity of opening a wine glass foot is about the same as playing a quick improvised jazz solo. If you asked a musician how a performance went, they could probably tell you how it fell playing each line. Same with a glass collaboration – I can usually recall how making a piece went, but in a setting like a collaboration or competition, I would remember every part of making a 2 1/2 minute piece as if it was a 15 minute story. When you start out making cups, the process can quickly go wrong in a jumble when it is time to open the rim. The next time, you remember to avoid that mistake… but might make a different one. Or maybe make the same one again. Each time it’s 10 or 20 minutes until you can be at that point again... it reminds me of 8 bit games where you have to go through a level repeatedly to get to a difficult jump, and keep trying til you make it. Eventually, you start finishing the process, and after many repetitions can do it without thinking. After even longer you learn every microsecond of the process - with glass, the feel of the hot bubble folding over and turning from a sphere to a flat disc in about 800 milliseconds, as you spin it in the flame. That’s the part that expands mentally for me - the control during that time. One learns to not fail to pay close attention at that time. While these moments still feel like they are over in an instant, over time, my ability to make good decisions repeatedly while taking it in stride has increased. I’d sum it up as my level of overwhelmedness has gone down. It’s as if time is expanded, though it all still happens very quickly. Due to all the practice, my awareness stays active instead of being overwhelmed. This phenomenon could also show up in other activities like sports. Your question comes down to basically nature versus nurture, though. Do some people have innate talent, or does it come from training? It seems like the answer is both, of course. My analysis is that some people are better at releasing their minds to accept learning things. Then, it’s a matter of practice and experience. Anything eventually becomes commonplace.

pterhx 8y ago

In Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise, Ericsson had chess grandmasters look chess boards of real games, and they could recreate the board in a pretty short fashion. But when they took chess boards of randomly placed pieces, they could not remember the placement of pieces any better than a random group of people. The idea is that through practice, you develop the ability pattern match and chunk together the data into more cohesive blocks, and memory fewer of these blocks. The rough analogy in software is to take a quick look at some code and recognize the design patterns, and remember the design patterns used rather each individual character. In fact, words are a form of chunking -- we don't remember hundreds of character sequences, but we remember the words instead.

maxxxxx 8y ago
It's probably like boxing a beginner. They do all kinds of weird stuff you never have seen and don't know how to categorize.
- cepth 8y ago
  If you want to see what pterhx was referring to in action, National Geographic did a documentary featuring Susan Polgar a few years back. The relevant clip and timestamp are here: https://youtu.be/LdKHrxcpxrY?t=238 https://youtu.be/LdKHrxcpxrY?t=238. The difficulty in recalling nonsensical positions is not that it's like "boxing a beginner", it's that the pieces are literally placed in a way that the positions could not have been reached with legal moves. Analogously, remembering famous quotes or memorable phrases in a certain language is quite easy. If instead, you had to memorize a string of randomly placed words that did not follow established rules of grammar or sentence structure, it'd be a much harder task. Chunking is context and experience dependent.