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I found it interesting that the espionage is largely aimed at the private sector and not the government: > About 70 percent of China’s overall espionage is aim
by faitswulff 8y ago
I found it interesting that the espionage is largely aimed at the private sector and not the government:
> About 70 percent of China’s overall espionage is aimed at the U.S. private sector, rather than the government, said Joshua Skule, the head of the FBI’s intelligence division, which is charged with countering foreign espionage in the United States.
> “They are conducting economic espionage at a rate that is unparalleled in our history,” he said.
- monksy 8y agoThey do target the government workers as well. (Well I guess I should say other people do) People target those on linked in who have listed security clearances.
- ptero 8y ago> People target those on linked in who have listed security clearances. Maybe, but I think they have a much better source: I suspect OPM data taken has been sold and lent out so they do not need to trust linked in; they can go directly to the source ( https://www.opm.gov/cybersecurity/cybersecurity-incidents/ https://www.opm.gov/cybersecurity/cybersecurity-incidents/ ). I wonder if it also contains "concerns" that can indicate weak points for recruiting for a true one-stop shopping?
- 394549 8y ago> I wonder if it also contains "concerns" that can indicate weak points for recruiting for a true one-stop shopping? It does. IIRC, it contained security clearance investigation files, so they could probably identify people who had issues but just squeaked by the process. But that's not the only use. The OPM data could be used for counterintelligence, to identify US agents in the field.
- 394549 8y ago> I found it interesting that the espionage is largely aimed at the private sector and not the government It's not that surprising though. One of their main focuses seems to be acquiring technology to catch up and eventually surpass Western liberal democracies. See their "Made in China 2025" effort: https://www.cfr.org/blog/why-does-everyone-hate-made-china-2025 https://www.cfr.org/blog/why-does-everyone-hate-made-china-2....
- monocasa 8y agoWhy? That's the proven strategy to leapfrog yourself into a developed economy. It's what the US, Germany, and Japan all did.
- toast_coder 8y agoThe US, Germany, and Japan are all technology leaders. None of those nations leapfrogged into a developed nation by copying others.
- ISL 8y agoA counterexample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater
- oh_sigh 8y agoBeing familiar with a machine, and taking that knowledge elsewhere seems qualitatively different from wholesale copying of documents and blueprints.
- monocasa 8y ago> He learned of the American interest in developing similar machines, and he was also aware of British laws against exporting the designs. He therefore memorized as much as he could and departed for New York in 1789. Textile mills at the time were the modern day equivalent of semiconductor foundries. I dare you to try something like that today and see what happens to you.
- dfsegoat 8y agoThink of a scenario where certain government employees have accounts on some Private sector service: Maybe a Grindr or Tinder -- if they can work to obtain any sort of compromising information from those services - they can then use it to manipulate government employees ("Do what I say, or i'll out you")... In fact, pretty sure a Chinese co. recently obtained controlling interest of Grindr. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/12/technology/grindr-sells-stake-to-chinese-company.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/12/technology/grindr-sells-s...
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago> Maybe a Grindr Which is owned by a mainland Chinese firm [1]. [1] https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/12/technology/grindr-china-beijing-kunlun-tech-deal/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/12/technology/grindr-china-bei...
- throwawaymanbot 8y agoEveryone should patriotically sign up to Grindr now to muddy their results :P
- nostromo 8y agoWe can inoculate ourselves to this threat by not caring about what politicians, government workers, and other people in general do in their private romantic lives.
- ProAm 8y agoIt would be humorous if they recruited employees of startups, the philosophy of moving fast and break things along with spends as much money as possible as fast as you can will have China using sub-par software and bankrupt within months, countries can't pivot and looking for exit through acquisition would be nigh impossible!
- WJW 8y agoSome people would argue that this has already happened.
- scarejunba 8y agoWhat's an anti-startup dude even doing on HN? Makes no sense.
- dqpb 8y agoChina has a large enough population that they could literally assign a dedicated spy for every single American and still have a billion people left over.
- sorokod 8y agoI think that in China, the separation between government and private business activities is quite fuzzy and the Chinese are ok with treating their intel resources in the same fuzzy manner.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- checkyoursudo 8y agoSeems reasonable that the Chinese feel like they have more to gain through economic espionage against the US than they do through political espionage. I would guess there are countries against whom the Chinese would do the opposite, where economic espionage isn't worthwhile but compromising the government is. The US, on the other hand, probably has more to gain through political espionage against the Chinese than through economic espionage. All depends on what you think you need?
- monocasa 8y ago> I would guess there are countries against whom the Chinese would do the opposite, where economic espionage isn't worthwhile but compromising the government is. Yep, in Africa, and probably along their "New Silk Road".
- marmot777 8y agoIsn't it sort of sad that they are stealing technology rather than making use of their own talents? Individuals don't feel good when they steal, so it must have some sort of effect on a society.
- checkyoursudo 8y agoIs it sad, as a society? I don't know. For me, personally, yeah, it's very dishonorable to my worldview. I would prefer alliances and collaboration and the betterment of all people rather than protectionism and distrust and zero-sum attitudes and behaviors. Hypothetically, what if their talents were indeed to steal stuff and get ahead by appropriating the work of others? Would it then be sad if they didn't put those talents to good use? I have no idea if all people do or don't feel good when they steal, but I would have guessed that some people do in fact feel good when they steal. Perhaps the badness that the people-who-do-the-stealing-for-their-society feel is outweighed by the overall goodness that the rest of society feels because of their advancement in (stolen) technology and the economic and societal benefits that come with that? But, yes, in the end, I personally would rather not have some technology than to acquire it by means contrary to my values. I know an awful lot of people whom I believe, or even know, would either say the opposite or would be indifferent.
- weliketocode 8y agoInteresting talking point, but they must be lumping a number of companies with government contracts into the private sector as well. Still, curious to see some sort of hierarchy around motivations/emphasis for: - top secret private info (defense or otherwise) - regular private sector info - public sector info related to government contracts - public sector info related to IP or tech - public or private sector info on important people
- aurailious 8y agoBecause private sector is incredibly easy to steal from. At least the government actually cares about it.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago> At least the government actually cares about it. Unless you're OPM and you can't be bothered to follow NSA guidelines. Or you're the military and think having sensitive documents on a loosely secured SharePoint server is a great idea.
- ataturk 8y agoOne company I worked for, we hired a Chinese DBA contractor. His initial move while onboarding was an attempt to burn an export of the entire customer database to a DVD. He got caught in the act and fired.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- horsecaptin 8y agoChina is not a market. It is a very large vendor and customer with many departments. This isn't good or evil, but it may be depending on who you are and what you're willing to stand for. In a traditional market, the organizers set rules for vendors and customers. The same rules apply to anyone should they decide to become a vendor or customer, but organizers usually avoid becoming a vendor because of obvious conflicts of interest. If you are a vendor then your customers in China are basically some subsidiary of the very large organization that is China. If you are a customer then you are basically buying from a subsidiary. Since you are dealing with subsidiaries, you have to understand that all the subsidiaries are encouraged to share information with each other to build a stronger China. Building deeper relationships with a subsidiary means building deeper relations with the whole organization and that means satisfying deeper requirements (taxes, knowledge sharing, local factory, IP sharing, equity sharing). All this is normal if you are say, just two companies doing business with each other. But you aren't. You are a company doing business with an organization who you may be misunderstanding for a market. Finally, theres the case where two companies merge and share all resources to become a stronger, better organization. Unlike many other countries, the Chinese identity is very much an ethnic and a lingual one. This means that if you are not Chinese, you will never be Chinese. If you aren't already Chinese, then the chances that you will be able to move to China should China become a prosperous society are slim to none.
- marmot777 8y agoEcon theft seems to be their main goal. It's a shame they they feel they have to lower themslves to stealing secrets when they have their own capabilities that they should have enough confidence in to not have to steal.