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Ignorant question: if operational costs trump all, especially fuel (Maersk says in the article 60% of operational cost) why not pure sail power? Is there some o

Ignorant question: if operational costs trump all, especially fuel (Maersk says in the article 60% of operational cost) why not pure sail power? Is there some other maintenance cost or infeasability there? Or is there another hidden variable that is not satisfied?

empath75 8y ago
unpredictability of wind, i'd imagine.
- ams6110 8y ago
  That and storms. You need engines to ride out or (better) avoid storms at sea.
  - rainbowmverse 8y ago
    Is a ship that big bothered by anything less than a hurricane?
    - Someone 8y ago
      I would think so, certainly of you add masts and sails that can propel that big a ship. Example without sails: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSC_Napoli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSC_Napoli: ”during European windstorm Kyrill, severe gale-force winds and huge waves caused serious damage to Napoli's hull, including a crack in one side and a flooded engine room […] the earlier grounding in 2001 did not contribute to the loss” That ship was 62,000 tons. That’s not huge by today’s standards, but not small either.
nickbauman 8y ago
When the Cutty Sark was the state of the art in merchant shipping, the steam ship was becoming a thing. The steam ship was much slower than the Cutty Sark and needed its own fuel to operate. It's a good example how the numbers alone don't necessarily add up for new technology.
jseutter 8y ago
This is a good question, and almost pure sail power may become a thing in the future. It looks like Maersk is trying to get ahead of the switch to cleaner fuel coming in 2020, which will increase their fuel costs by about 60%. This idea of putting sails on a large ship was at best only marginally cost-effective before now. Some practical considerations come into play - while saving money is good, being able to reach your destination when you say you will is also worth something. With pure wind you lose that control. Deck size is not infinite, so there is a limit to how many sail towers are useful. Tower height also has practical limits before it destabilizes the ship. Handling bad weather is much easier with the on-demand power that comes from engines.
- jotm 8y ago
  Why not use electrical propulsion and charge batteries from wind and solar? At first, as a fuel saving measure in optimal conditions (rely on internal combustion engines most of the time). Seems better than pure sail power, even though that is more efficient (due to direct wind to motion conversion).
  - gambiting 8y ago
    Re:solar - there was an experiment where they covered a whole tanker with solar panels. During the day, they provided 10% of power....needed to run the lights on the ship. Solar is just nowhere near good enough compared to the needs of a massive ship like this. Wind would maybe work, but then remember that a turbine would effectively slow you down as you'd be pushing against the air.
    - mapt 8y ago
      At perhaps 100 watts per square meter, a Maersk triple E ("An arbitrary large ship") at approximately 400 meters * 60 meters would generate 2.4 megawatts peak, or perhaps 400 kilowatts averaged. This is not nothing. It's roughly as much power as a redlined sports car engine. It might be sufficient to fight the worst ocean currents, since propulsion power scales so frighteningly faster than speed. https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/the-future-ultra-slow-unmanned-mega-ships https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/the-future-ult... It would also make sense, with larger ships, to just implement the nuclear tech we already have.
abtinf 8y ago
I'm not an expert in this topic - I've just read a few books and shipping was covered in a few of my upper division classes. They are the most important factors in the context of reliably shipping goods from port to port. If there was a sail technology that allowed reliable transit, predictable speeds and times (really slow is OK, a little late is not), and didn't cause an increase in other costs (say, insurance or maintenance), and could move the tonnage involved (up to 40 tons per container multiplied by thousands of containers, or enormous dry goods loads), I suspect it would capture a sizable portion of the market. Edit: it occurs to me that significantly reducing fuel costs would allow entirely new kinds of loads to be transported and potentially radically alter the world economy. I once saw a chart where the Y axis was price per unit and the X axis was unit density. There was a line on the chart, above which it is economical to ship a good, below which it is not. The top right of the chart had things like electronics - which have been shipped since the dawn of the industry. The bottom left had things unprocessed ore, which have never made sense to ship.
- markdown 8y ago
  > The bottom left had things unprocessed ore, which have never made sense to ship. China mines and ships bauxite from Fiji to China. https://aluminiuminsider.com/bound-chinese-shores-fiji-ships-first-load-bauxite-2018/ https://aluminiuminsider.com/bound-chinese-shores-fiji-ships...
  - BurningFrog 8y ago
    Without knowing much of anything: Bauxite is a bit special in that aluminum processing is extremely energy intensive, and I think the ore is often shipped to places with low electricity prices. It is one of the bigger industries in Iceland: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/us/politics/american-companies-still-make-aluminum-in-iceland.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/us/politics/american-comp...
mabbo 8y ago
I've long imagined some fun possibilities for this. I picture a small-ish shipping ship, say something moving 20 or 30 containers only, fully autonomous (100% crewless) with sails and solar only powering it. Solar electric motors handling the near-land operations and "not enough wind" conditions, sails otherwise. If you had autonomous loading and unloading, you would have zero variable/operational cost. I am certain there are very good reasons this would never work, but I still love the idea.
- alonmower 8y ago
  No hostages for pirates to take either (though I guess they could help themselves to all of the goods on the ship)
  - Maybestring 8y ago
    And the ships. Drop an anchor and demand ransom to cut it free.
    - lozaning 8y ago
      Even easier, just spoof the GPS signals with your own higher powered broadcast and make the ship think it's sailing around while it's actually stationary. Cant find the link but, some university actually demoed this working in real life with an actual container ship. Im imagining an LED throwie type big magnetic thing with gps RX and TX, and a satellite uplink. Cruise by the autonomous ship on a jetski near a port, thrown the magnet thing on, jetski away, disrupt from afar once the boat is out at sea.
      - dzhiurgis 8y ago
        Ye old compass and lag wont get fooled by such mischievous act.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Electromagnet.
ars 8y ago
Slow is OK, but it must be exactly predictable. Don't be early, don't be late. So you can use sails to help, but if you rely on them you might be late.
- vladd 8y ago
  You can keep the timetable no matter what -- use sails just to save fuel consumption when weather is favorable.
- picsao 8y ago
  Wouldn't then be on demand engines- tugdroneships along searoutes be ideal? Non of the weight sailing - all the speed on need.
wenc 8y ago
I wonder: do sails alone generate enough power to move today's massive container ships? Or would the ships need to be smaller?
- dscpls 8y ago
  There's no question sails can move today's cargo volume. But the shape of the ships doesn't lend itself to sail power. I think these sails are specific to supporting other power. And the shape of today's ships is very much towards fitting more cargo. I think you'd need at least slightly bigger ships that are efficient for sail power alone, and able to carry similar cargo volume or mass.
  - dzhiurgis 8y ago
    I think such rotating sails could be almost called 'solid state' - basically zero hassle compared to a traditional canvas where there is always person on lookout, trim before wind picked up, make sure rigging is maintained, etc. That said these probably produce way less power.
    - jhayward 8y ago
      Rotating sails and wind turbines have historically been extremely high maintenance due to the forces the long moment arm puts on the rotational coupling at the base.
baddox 8y ago
I read an article about the potential of drone ships that claimed one reason ships don't go even slower is the logistics around having a crew on the ship for the entire voyage.
ThrustVectoring 8y ago
Capital expenditures are also pretty important. If the ships cost twice as much to build, you're paying twice as much in interest (or more). At the same amount of investment, you're shipping fewer things more profitably, and that only really makes sense if you can get attractive debt terms under pretty intense price pressure.
juhanima 8y ago
Fun trivia: when windjammers were going out of style, some businessmen still bought them for the low cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Erikson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Erikson For a while in 1930's small Åland had the largest sailing fleet in the world.

empath75 8y ago

unpredictability of wind, i'd imagine.

ams6110 8y ago
That and storms. You need engines to ride out or (better) avoid storms at sea.
- rainbowmverse 8y ago
  Is a ship that big bothered by anything less than a hurricane?
  - Someone 8y ago
    I would think so, certainly of you add masts and sails that can propel that big a ship. Example without sails: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSC_Napoli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSC_Napoli: ”during European windstorm Kyrill, severe gale-force winds and huge waves caused serious damage to Napoli's hull, including a crack in one side and a flooded engine room […] the earlier grounding in 2001 did not contribute to the loss” That ship was 62,000 tons. That’s not huge by today’s standards, but not small either.

nickbauman 8y ago

When the Cutty Sark was the state of the art in merchant shipping, the steam ship was becoming a thing. The steam ship was much slower than the Cutty Sark and needed its own fuel to operate. It's a good example how the numbers alone don't necessarily add up for new technology.

jseutter 8y ago

This is a good question, and almost pure sail power may become a thing in the future. It looks like Maersk is trying to get ahead of the switch to cleaner fuel coming in 2020, which will increase their fuel costs by about 60%. This idea of putting sails on a large ship was at best only marginally cost-effective before now. Some practical considerations come into play - while saving money is good, being able to reach your destination when you say you will is also worth something. With pure wind you lose that control. Deck size is not infinite, so there is a limit to how many sail towers are useful. Tower height also has practical limits before it destabilizes the ship. Handling bad weather is much easier with the on-demand power that comes from engines.

jotm 8y ago
Why not use electrical propulsion and charge batteries from wind and solar? At first, as a fuel saving measure in optimal conditions (rely on internal combustion engines most of the time). Seems better than pure sail power, even though that is more efficient (due to direct wind to motion conversion).
- gambiting 8y ago
  Re:solar - there was an experiment where they covered a whole tanker with solar panels. During the day, they provided 10% of power....needed to run the lights on the ship. Solar is just nowhere near good enough compared to the needs of a massive ship like this. Wind would maybe work, but then remember that a turbine would effectively slow you down as you'd be pushing against the air.
  - mapt 8y ago
    At perhaps 100 watts per square meter, a Maersk triple E ("An arbitrary large ship") at approximately 400 meters * 60 meters would generate 2.4 megawatts peak, or perhaps 400 kilowatts averaged. This is not nothing. It's roughly as much power as a redlined sports car engine. It might be sufficient to fight the worst ocean currents, since propulsion power scales so frighteningly faster than speed. https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/the-future-ultra-slow-unmanned-mega-ships https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/the-future-ult... It would also make sense, with larger ships, to just implement the nuclear tech we already have.

abtinf 8y ago

I'm not an expert in this topic - I've just read a few books and shipping was covered in a few of my upper division classes. They are the most important factors in the context of reliably shipping goods from port to port. If there was a sail technology that allowed reliable transit, predictable speeds and times (really slow is OK, a little late is not), and didn't cause an increase in other costs (say, insurance or maintenance), and could move the tonnage involved (up to 40 tons per container multiplied by thousands of containers, or enormous dry goods loads), I suspect it would capture a sizable portion of the market. Edit: it occurs to me that significantly reducing fuel costs would allow entirely new kinds of loads to be transported and potentially radically alter the world economy. I once saw a chart where the Y axis was price per unit and the X axis was unit density. There was a line on the chart, above which it is economical to ship a good, below which it is not. The top right of the chart had things like electronics - which have been shipped since the dawn of the industry. The bottom left had things unprocessed ore, which have never made sense to ship.

markdown 8y ago
> The bottom left had things unprocessed ore, which have never made sense to ship. China mines and ships bauxite from Fiji to China. https://aluminiuminsider.com/bound-chinese-shores-fiji-ships-first-load-bauxite-2018/ https://aluminiuminsider.com/bound-chinese-shores-fiji-ships...
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  Without knowing much of anything: Bauxite is a bit special in that aluminum processing is extremely energy intensive, and I think the ore is often shipped to places with low electricity prices. It is one of the bigger industries in Iceland: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/us/politics/american-companies-still-make-aluminum-in-iceland.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/us/politics/american-comp...

mabbo 8y ago

I've long imagined some fun possibilities for this. I picture a small-ish shipping ship, say something moving 20 or 30 containers only, fully autonomous (100% crewless) with sails and solar only powering it. Solar electric motors handling the near-land operations and "not enough wind" conditions, sails otherwise. If you had autonomous loading and unloading, you would have zero variable/operational cost. I am certain there are very good reasons this would never work, but I still love the idea.

alonmower 8y ago
No hostages for pirates to take either (though I guess they could help themselves to all of the goods on the ship)
- Maybestring 8y ago
  And the ships. Drop an anchor and demand ransom to cut it free.
  - lozaning 8y ago
    Even easier, just spoof the GPS signals with your own higher powered broadcast and make the ship think it's sailing around while it's actually stationary. Cant find the link but, some university actually demoed this working in real life with an actual container ship. Im imagining an LED throwie type big magnetic thing with gps RX and TX, and a satellite uplink. Cruise by the autonomous ship on a jetski near a port, thrown the magnet thing on, jetski away, disrupt from afar once the boat is out at sea.
    - dzhiurgis 8y ago
      Ye old compass and lag wont get fooled by such mischievous act.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Electromagnet.

ars 8y ago

Slow is OK, but it must be exactly predictable. Don't be early, don't be late. So you can use sails to help, but if you rely on them you might be late.

vladd 8y ago
You can keep the timetable no matter what -- use sails just to save fuel consumption when weather is favorable.
picsao 8y ago
Wouldn't then be on demand engines- tugdroneships along searoutes be ideal? Non of the weight sailing - all the speed on need.

wenc 8y ago

I wonder: do sails alone generate enough power to move today's massive container ships? Or would the ships need to be smaller?

dscpls 8y ago
There's no question sails can move today's cargo volume. But the shape of the ships doesn't lend itself to sail power. I think these sails are specific to supporting other power. And the shape of today's ships is very much towards fitting more cargo. I think you'd need at least slightly bigger ships that are efficient for sail power alone, and able to carry similar cargo volume or mass.
- dzhiurgis 8y ago
  I think such rotating sails could be almost called 'solid state' - basically zero hassle compared to a traditional canvas where there is always person on lookout, trim before wind picked up, make sure rigging is maintained, etc. That said these probably produce way less power.
  - jhayward 8y ago
    Rotating sails and wind turbines have historically been extremely high maintenance due to the forces the long moment arm puts on the rotational coupling at the base.

baddox 8y ago

I read an article about the potential of drone ships that claimed one reason ships don't go even slower is the logistics around having a crew on the ship for the entire voyage.

ThrustVectoring 8y ago

Capital expenditures are also pretty important. If the ships cost twice as much to build, you're paying twice as much in interest (or more). At the same amount of investment, you're shipping fewer things more profitably, and that only really makes sense if you can get attractive debt terms under pretty intense price pressure.

juhanima 8y ago

Fun trivia: when windjammers were going out of style, some businessmen still bought them for the low cost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Erikson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Erikson For a while in 1930's small Åland had the largest sailing fleet in the world.