5 ms·

How is anyone supposed to type on something like that?

by s_kilk 8y ago

maxerickson 8y ago
Who cares. Bringing experiments all the way to market is a good thing, just don't buy one and you are sorted.
- bryanrasmussen 8y ago
  bringing experiments all the way to market is really only good if anyone cares to try them out. if no one cares to try them then that experiment has failed in the market.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Okay, but my point is that the other poster is responding to the idea, not the implementation. If people that have used it say it stinks, then we have some information.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    Bringing experiments all the way to market is a good way of wasting lots of precious natural resources. The more you can test a design before it hits Chinese megafactories and worldwide distribution centers, the better for the planet.
- sofon 8y ago
  It's probably not very bad, but stupid experiments can have a negative influence on the community as a whole. Let's say e-ink keyboards are a good idea, but it's too soon. An early implementation will quite possibly delay (more make completely unviable) trying the experiment again. If it's just a bad idea, resources will have been diverted into the development of a failed product (which is years of someones life spent on something useless). Not only that, but the cost of trying other ideas is increased. You have to hire and train more developers to work on other projects, to make up for the time wasted. The cost of developers increases for other companies, perhaps trying out better ideas. This particular instance probably isn't very significant. But people apply the same logic to "what's the harm in VCs funding blockchains for pets", or any other buzzword without really understanding it. Well the harm is that they shift the entire ecosystem toward something that is possibly not very useful. They increase the costs for other companies (perhaps bootstrapping) their own ideas. And they push us toward a market that is driven by buzzwords, not logic, which is where most of us end up working.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    This presumes we can choose the right path without mistakes. It's a silly presumption. And I think it's fine to be frustrated with stupid VC spending, but to the extent it is actually a problem, it shouldn't be sustainable (it would be replaced by less stupid spending if it were truly enjoining advancement).
    - sofon 8y ago
      I agree, we can't proceed without mistakes. But it's incorrect to say that there is no cost, and that we shouldn't minimise mistakes (which is what the comment I was replying to was implying). The VC stuff... I'm not sure that it's not sustainable. The way VCs are selected is not totally efficient (I would say, not even very efficient). More than that, successful exits for VCs don't always mean that a product or service provided value to the world at large (or was a good use for limited engineering talent), there are lots of ways for a VC to get a successful exit without that happening (including a follow on investing giving them liquidity, before there is even a product on the market for example, or the company being acquired without having developed anything useful).
      - maxerickson 8y ago
        I said more than "not sustainable", I said that if it is really a problem, it wouldn't be sustainable. If they are wasting tons of money then they probably aren't the thing limiting advancement.
        sofon 8y ago
        I don't see how that follows. They don't just waste money, they redirect resources that could be deployed better elsewhere.
        maxerickson 8y ago
        If the money is there to waste, you have some evidence that no one has a better idea about how to deploy the resources. There's the problem of what "better" should mean, but private investors aren't going to fund government for fun (or similar), so many of the alternative meanings of better can't really be expected to inform a discussion about private investment. Like maybe stupid VC spending is evidence that tech companies aren't getting taxed enough, but that is solved by raising taxes, not by hand-wringing over questionable products.
aloisdg 8y ago
I would prefer a mechanical or classical keyboard with e-ink key-caps top.
- delecti 8y ago
  Not e-ink, but something very similar to that was a thing about a decade ago. To say it wasn't a runaway success might be putting it lightly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard
matthewaveryusa 8y ago
I've typed on one of these (same style i.e. a projection keyboard) and it's not that bad, the zero-tactile feedback takes some getting used to but my wpm doesn't suffer too much. I also only type at 70-120 wpm and never purchased a 'nice' keyboard so I'm certainly not a typing/keyboard enthusiast. I think a keyboard with each individual key being e-ink would be pretty cool.
- sbarre 8y ago
  This one has haptic feedback when you type so you do get some kind of feedback, even if there aren't defined keys.
davej 8y ago
Haptics will definitely help the feel. I imagine it would take a few weeks of use to evaluate if it's a workable solution for you. I'm very interested to hear what the reviews say about it.
738472527784 8y ago
I like how they _visually marked 'F' and 'J' ........
spuz 8y ago
The video showing the guy typing and the sound of the haptic feedback gives you a good idea of what it feels like. Watching it I can see how it might work well. I am sure it would take some getting used to. I can also see how some people's initial reaction might be similar to the reaction a lot of people had to the original iPhone. Of course now most people are very comfortable typing on a touchscreen phone keyboard.
- dahauns 8y ago
  >Of course now most people are very comfortable typing on a touchscreen phone keyboard. Comfortable enough, yeah. But I really don't think the comparison is apt. Phone usage != laptop usage. I don't think you will find more than a handful of people comfortable with the idea of writing, say, a term paper on their iPhone/iPad/Surface/etc. touch keyboard. And those have been around for a long time.
ivanhoe 8y ago
You could always have a thin removable plastic pad on the top of the keyboard that would fake the buttons and provide the tactile feedback, while still allowing for small factor, easy cleanup and longevity of the touchscreen interface.
Casseres 8y ago
I have the first generation Lenovo Yoga Book. It's actually okay to type on. I'm not the best typer, but I have some decent muscle memory and my typing on that thing is about 95% accurate (one typo about every third word). It's good enough that I can correct any typos later and not take away from the other benefits of the design. I feel that I lose that accuracy because the "keyboard" is smaller than what I'm usee to. I turned off the haptic feedback on mine as it's too distracting and to save battery. (The battery last a long time on it - about 8 hours watching movies on 50% brightness in airplane mode. Over 14 hours reading PDFs.)

How is anyone supposed to type on something like that?

by s_kilk 8y ago

How is anyone supposed to type on something like that?

maxerickson 8y ago

Who cares. Bringing experiments all the way to market is a good thing, just don't buy one and you are sorted.

bryanrasmussen 8y ago
bringing experiments all the way to market is really only good if anyone cares to try them out. if no one cares to try them then that experiment has failed in the market.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Okay, but my point is that the other poster is responding to the idea, not the implementation. If people that have used it say it stinks, then we have some information.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Bringing experiments all the way to market is a good way of wasting lots of precious natural resources. The more you can test a design before it hits Chinese megafactories and worldwide distribution centers, the better for the planet.
sofon 8y ago
It's probably not very bad, but stupid experiments can have a negative influence on the community as a whole. Let's say e-ink keyboards are a good idea, but it's too soon. An early implementation will quite possibly delay (more make completely unviable) trying the experiment again. If it's just a bad idea, resources will have been diverted into the development of a failed product (which is years of someones life spent on something useless). Not only that, but the cost of trying other ideas is increased. You have to hire and train more developers to work on other projects, to make up for the time wasted. The cost of developers increases for other companies, perhaps trying out better ideas. This particular instance probably isn't very significant. But people apply the same logic to "what's the harm in VCs funding blockchains for pets", or any other buzzword without really understanding it. Well the harm is that they shift the entire ecosystem toward something that is possibly not very useful. They increase the costs for other companies (perhaps bootstrapping) their own ideas. And they push us toward a market that is driven by buzzwords, not logic, which is where most of us end up working.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  This presumes we can choose the right path without mistakes. It's a silly presumption. And I think it's fine to be frustrated with stupid VC spending, but to the extent it is actually a problem, it shouldn't be sustainable (it would be replaced by less stupid spending if it were truly enjoining advancement).
  - sofon 8y ago
    I agree, we can't proceed without mistakes. But it's incorrect to say that there is no cost, and that we shouldn't minimise mistakes (which is what the comment I was replying to was implying). The VC stuff... I'm not sure that it's not sustainable. The way VCs are selected is not totally efficient (I would say, not even very efficient). More than that, successful exits for VCs don't always mean that a product or service provided value to the world at large (or was a good use for limited engineering talent), there are lots of ways for a VC to get a successful exit without that happening (including a follow on investing giving them liquidity, before there is even a product on the market for example, or the company being acquired without having developed anything useful).
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      I said more than "not sustainable", I said that if it is really a problem, it wouldn't be sustainable. If they are wasting tons of money then they probably aren't the thing limiting advancement.
      - sofon 8y ago
        I don't see how that follows. They don't just waste money, they redirect resources that could be deployed better elsewhere.
        maxerickson 8y ago
        If the money is there to waste, you have some evidence that no one has a better idea about how to deploy the resources. There's the problem of what "better" should mean, but private investors aren't going to fund government for fun (or similar), so many of the alternative meanings of better can't really be expected to inform a discussion about private investment. Like maybe stupid VC spending is evidence that tech companies aren't getting taxed enough, but that is solved by raising taxes, not by hand-wringing over questionable products.

aloisdg 8y ago

I would prefer a mechanical or classical keyboard with e-ink key-caps top.

delecti 8y ago
Not e-ink, but something very similar to that was a thing about a decade ago. To say it wasn't a runaway success might be putting it lightly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard

matthewaveryusa 8y ago

I've typed on one of these (same style i.e. a projection keyboard) and it's not that bad, the zero-tactile feedback takes some getting used to but my wpm doesn't suffer too much. I also only type at 70-120 wpm and never purchased a 'nice' keyboard so I'm certainly not a typing/keyboard enthusiast. I think a keyboard with each individual key being e-ink would be pretty cool.

sbarre 8y ago
This one has haptic feedback when you type so you do get some kind of feedback, even if there aren't defined keys.

davej 8y ago

Haptics will definitely help the feel. I imagine it would take a few weeks of use to evaluate if it's a workable solution for you. I'm very interested to hear what the reviews say about it.

738472527784 8y ago

I like how they _visually marked 'F' and 'J' ........

spuz 8y ago

The video showing the guy typing and the sound of the haptic feedback gives you a good idea of what it feels like. Watching it I can see how it might work well. I am sure it would take some getting used to. I can also see how some people's initial reaction might be similar to the reaction a lot of people had to the original iPhone. Of course now most people are very comfortable typing on a touchscreen phone keyboard.

dahauns 8y ago
>Of course now most people are very comfortable typing on a touchscreen phone keyboard. Comfortable enough, yeah. But I really don't think the comparison is apt. Phone usage != laptop usage. I don't think you will find more than a handful of people comfortable with the idea of writing, say, a term paper on their iPhone/iPad/Surface/etc. touch keyboard. And those have been around for a long time.

ivanhoe 8y ago

You could always have a thin removable plastic pad on the top of the keyboard that would fake the buttons and provide the tactile feedback, while still allowing for small factor, easy cleanup and longevity of the touchscreen interface.

Casseres 8y ago

I have the first generation Lenovo Yoga Book. It's actually okay to type on. I'm not the best typer, but I have some decent muscle memory and my typing on that thing is about 95% accurate (one typo about every third word). It's good enough that I can correct any typos later and not take away from the other benefits of the design. I feel that I lose that accuracy because the "keyboard" is smaller than what I'm usee to. I turned off the haptic feedback on mine as it's too distracting and to save battery. (The battery last a long time on it - about 8 hours watching movies on 50% brightness in airplane mode. Over 14 hours reading PDFs.)