6 ms·

I’m confused. There is almost no rhetoric against legal and/or qualified immigration, just the illegal kind.

NTDF9 8y ago
You have no idea how this administration is systematically pushing family oriented tech people away by creating gridlocks in the legal immigration process.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Well, big companies abusing the system certainly doesn't help. Having ceilings based on a % of company number of employees or some other mechanism would go a long way (or the chance of draw being related to their salary)
  - NTDF9 8y ago
    >> Well, big companies abusing the system certainly doesn't help. They already have a legal requirement to pay prevailing wage before they can get a visa. That means at least six figures in the bay area. There are a few reasons Americans don't take these six figure jobs: 1. Don't want to live in California/too expensive 2. This is the more common reason: Americans don't do STEM much, cannot compete with internationals. Obviously not all Americans are incompetent but given the number of open positions in the bay area, there are just not enough of them. As an anecdote, my manager has had 2 open positions for 7 months now, paying $125k base + sign on + relocation + bonus + stock for a new grad. Guess how many we've filled after 7 months? A big fat zero. The only way our product would sustain is by hiring people. So we eventually ended up hiring an h1b Chinese guy who was very very smart and capable. Then, because legal immigration process is choked off, he still couldn't join after 4 months. So we just had him join an offshore satellite office and moved his projects there. If he plays his cards right, the project will grow and he will help us hire more in the offshore site. Does this sound good for America?
    - scarface74 8y ago
      As an anecdote, my manager has had 2 open positions for 7 months now, paying $125k base + sign on + relocation + bonus + stock for a new grad. Guess how many we've filled after 7 months? A big fat zero. Why would anyone move to California for $125K when they could live in one of 20 other major cities, make the same amount with a lower cost of living?
      - jogjayr 8y ago
        GP didn't say $125k total comp. Counting sign-on, bonus, and stock, it could be as much as $200k total comp - for a new grad. Which other cities/industries pay that much? (outside of finance or law, at the top end)
        scarface74 8y ago
        What are the chances that the stock+bonus will be an extra $75K per year? Also, the stock and probably sign on bonus probably has a vesting period. What will be the future value of the stock? What if the project doesn’t go as planned and they let the potential employee go before the vesting period? Cash is king. Anything else shifts the risks away from the better capitalized corporation to the less capitalized potential employee.
        jogjayr 8y ago
        If it's a FAANG-type company, the stock has done well in the past 10 years so it's been a pretty good bet to make. Public tech companies have done well overall. Sign-on bonuses don't have a vesting period. That's why they're called "sign-on" - you get them when you sign on. You might have to give them back, pro-rated, if you leave the company within a certain time period (typically a year). > Cash is king. I'm not disagreeing here. I'm just pointing out that the fixed $125k number in your mind is inaccurate in reality. The total value of the stock+sign-on+bonus may not be $75k (that might be the ideal case) but it's not $0 either. The total comp is a lot of money for any new grad in any city in the world (again, outside of finance and law at the top end).
  - moultano 8y ago
    Moving to a function of salary instead of a lottery would be an improvement, but not if it is accompanied by a cut in the quota which the Trump admin is reported to want. Bringing people to the US who earn more than the median wage enormously benefits Americans. We've built our economy on a brain drain from the rest of the world and we're making every effort right now to fuck that up.
electic 8y ago
You're kidding? There is more and more rhetoric being spewed relating to the legal kind as well. There is even policy being enacted to drastically cut down or make it very hard to gain legal status by burying you with paperwork. Beyond immigration talk, the constant spewing of racism coming from the administrations is a clear signal that immigrants of different backgrounds are not wanted. To that end, they simply pack up and build their business and wealth elsewhere. We won't feel those effects right now but it will hit hard in a few years.
- weiming 8y ago
  > Beyond immigration talk, the constant spewing... Curious to see some examples cited.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/04/06/politics/trump-mexico-rapists/index.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/04/06/poli... https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/01/11/politics/immigrants-shithole-countries-trump/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/01/11/politics/immigrants-shith... https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537012/ https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537012/ What more evidence do you need?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - repolfx 8y ago
      I clicked the first link. I feel a strange need to show fairness to Trump here. The CNN headline is very misleading, it says "Trump basically called Mexicans rapists again" but then goes on to quote him and the quote doesn't contain any such statement. He doesn't even mention Mexicans. Rather he makes a general statement that women get raped a lot on the paths used for illegal immigration into the USA, a statement CNN actually agrees with according to their article: "Nobody is arguing that the trip from Central America to the US is easy or that women are not attacked or exploited on it. That is a well-documented problem, one that Trump brought up to bolster his own case for tougher immigration laws." Trump expressing concern about abuse of women on the paths used by illegal immigrants is an odd form of 'racism'.
moultano 8y ago
A few examples. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769 https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-tr... https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/tech-companies-h4-holders-brace-for-trump-administration-changes-to-h4-visas.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/tech-companies-h4-holders-br... https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/20/h-1b-visas-how-the-trump-administration-is-freaking-people-out/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/20/h-1b-visas-how-the-tr...
pjc50 8y ago
"Legal" immigrants face a rising endless treadmill of demand for proof, and can be made illegal by the stroke of a pen with no recourse.
tanilama 8y ago
Nah, it is widely felt every immigrant is unwanted by the action of USCIS as of late. I don't mind long wait time, but I hate to live under fear and some bureaucrat's mercy and being assumed as job thieves.
puranjay 8y ago
As a potential legal immigrant, I just don't want to take my labor to a country whose President doesn't respect or welcome me. Sure, the rhetoric might be against illegal immigration, but I'd rather just move to a country where Nazis aren't "fine people". The America brand has essentially been tainted.
- frockington 8y ago
  I don't understand this logic. You want to move to America, but you hate America. Why not just move elsewhere then? Is there something that America has that you can't find anywhere else?
  - mfringel 8y ago
    It appears that you have conflated "hating America" with "hating the current President and his policies". Can you say more about that?
  - puranjay 8y ago
    That's exactly what I meant: that I'd just take my labor elsewhere. I have no intention of immigrating to America in the near future; it will take someone like Obama in power again for me to think otherwise. There are other labor markets that are happy to put out the welcome mat for me The sad thing is that I studied in America for two years and can't reconcile the current rhetoric with the memories I had
naravara 8y ago
There is no way you can be this gullible. There is absolutely rhetoric and action being taken against all immigrants. The "illegal" label is a canard, and being as how our immigration laws are largely arbitrary and nonsensical, not even a very logical one. Passports are being denied to US citizens and their documentation is being deemed invalid based on no evidence and no due process: https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administration-denying-passports-us-002901041.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administration-denying-pass... Steve Bannon talks about how even legal immigrants from South Asia don't fit into America's "civic society" (whatever that means): https://boingboing.net/2016/11/17/steve-bannon-wants-to-deport-a.html https://boingboing.net/2016/11/17/steve-bannon-wants-to-depo... ICE reserves the right to detail and interrogate people about their immigration status as a matter of course, and their only rubric for "suspicion" is "person is Brown." http://www.witf.org/news/2018/07/how-racial-profiling-goes-unchecked-in-immigration-enforcement.php http://www.witf.org/news/2018/07/how-racial-profiling-goes-u...
TheCoelacanth 8y ago
"Chain migration", "extreme vetting", people legally seeking asylum are "gaming the system", "turn off the jobs and benefits magnet", "Massive demographic changes have been foisted upon the American people. And they’re changes that none of us ever voted for and most of us don’t like", "almost every student that comes over [from China] is a spy", we admit too many immigrants from "shitholes" If you haven't seen rhetoric against legal immigration, you haven't been paying attention.

You have no idea how this administration is systematically pushing family oriented tech people away by creating gridlocks in the legal immigration process.

raverbashing 8y ago
Well, big companies abusing the system certainly doesn't help. Having ceilings based on a % of company number of employees or some other mechanism would go a long way (or the chance of draw being related to their salary)
- NTDF9 8y ago
  >> Well, big companies abusing the system certainly doesn't help. They already have a legal requirement to pay prevailing wage before they can get a visa. That means at least six figures in the bay area. There are a few reasons Americans don't take these six figure jobs: 1. Don't want to live in California/too expensive 2. This is the more common reason: Americans don't do STEM much, cannot compete with internationals. Obviously not all Americans are incompetent but given the number of open positions in the bay area, there are just not enough of them. As an anecdote, my manager has had 2 open positions for 7 months now, paying $125k base + sign on + relocation + bonus + stock for a new grad. Guess how many we've filled after 7 months? A big fat zero. The only way our product would sustain is by hiring people. So we eventually ended up hiring an h1b Chinese guy who was very very smart and capable. Then, because legal immigration process is choked off, he still couldn't join after 4 months. So we just had him join an offshore satellite office and moved his projects there. If he plays his cards right, the project will grow and he will help us hire more in the offshore site. Does this sound good for America?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    As an anecdote, my manager has had 2 open positions for 7 months now, paying $125k base + sign on + relocation + bonus + stock for a new grad. Guess how many we've filled after 7 months? A big fat zero. Why would anyone move to California for $125K when they could live in one of 20 other major cities, make the same amount with a lower cost of living?
    - jogjayr 8y ago
      GP didn't say $125k total comp. Counting sign-on, bonus, and stock, it could be as much as $200k total comp - for a new grad. Which other cities/industries pay that much? (outside of finance or law, at the top end)
      - scarface74 8y ago
        What are the chances that the stock+bonus will be an extra $75K per year? Also, the stock and probably sign on bonus probably has a vesting period. What will be the future value of the stock? What if the project doesn’t go as planned and they let the potential employee go before the vesting period? Cash is king. Anything else shifts the risks away from the better capitalized corporation to the less capitalized potential employee.
        jogjayr 8y ago
        If it's a FAANG-type company, the stock has done well in the past 10 years so it's been a pretty good bet to make. Public tech companies have done well overall. Sign-on bonuses don't have a vesting period. That's why they're called "sign-on" - you get them when you sign on. You might have to give them back, pro-rated, if you leave the company within a certain time period (typically a year). > Cash is king. I'm not disagreeing here. I'm just pointing out that the fixed $125k number in your mind is inaccurate in reality. The total value of the stock+sign-on+bonus may not be $75k (that might be the ideal case) but it's not $0 either. The total comp is a lot of money for any new grad in any city in the world (again, outside of finance and law at the top end).
- moultano 8y ago
  Moving to a function of salary instead of a lottery would be an improvement, but not if it is accompanied by a cut in the quota which the Trump admin is reported to want. Bringing people to the US who earn more than the median wage enormously benefits Americans. We've built our economy on a brain drain from the rest of the world and we're making every effort right now to fuck that up.

electic 8y ago

You're kidding? There is more and more rhetoric being spewed relating to the legal kind as well. There is even policy being enacted to drastically cut down or make it very hard to gain legal status by burying you with paperwork. Beyond immigration talk, the constant spewing of racism coming from the administrations is a clear signal that immigrants of different backgrounds are not wanted. To that end, they simply pack up and build their business and wealth elsewhere. We won't feel those effects right now but it will hit hard in a few years.

weiming 8y ago
> Beyond immigration talk, the constant spewing... Curious to see some examples cited.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/04/06/politics/trump-mexico-rapists/index.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/04/06/poli... https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/01/11/politics/immigrants-shithole-countries-trump/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/01/11/politics/immigrants-shith... https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537012/ https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537012/ What more evidence do you need?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - repolfx 8y ago
    I clicked the first link. I feel a strange need to show fairness to Trump here. The CNN headline is very misleading, it says "Trump basically called Mexicans rapists again" but then goes on to quote him and the quote doesn't contain any such statement. He doesn't even mention Mexicans. Rather he makes a general statement that women get raped a lot on the paths used for illegal immigration into the USA, a statement CNN actually agrees with according to their article: "Nobody is arguing that the trip from Central America to the US is easy or that women are not attacked or exploited on it. That is a well-documented problem, one that Trump brought up to bolster his own case for tougher immigration laws." Trump expressing concern about abuse of women on the paths used by illegal immigrants is an odd form of 'racism'.

moultano 8y ago

A few examples. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769 https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-trump-presidency-chief-strategist-breitbart-tech-visa https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13653490/steve-bannon-tr... https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/tech-companies-h4-holders-brace-for-trump-administration-changes-to-h4-visas.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/tech-companies-h4-holders-br... https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/20/h-1b-visas-how-the-trump-administration-is-freaking-people-out/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/02/20/h-1b-visas-how-the-tr...

pjc50 8y ago

"Legal" immigrants face a rising endless treadmill of demand for proof, and can be made illegal by the stroke of a pen with no recourse.

tanilama 8y ago

Nah, it is widely felt every immigrant is unwanted by the action of USCIS as of late. I don't mind long wait time, but I hate to live under fear and some bureaucrat's mercy and being assumed as job thieves.

puranjay 8y ago

As a potential legal immigrant, I just don't want to take my labor to a country whose President doesn't respect or welcome me. Sure, the rhetoric might be against illegal immigration, but I'd rather just move to a country where Nazis aren't "fine people". The America brand has essentially been tainted.

frockington 8y ago
I don't understand this logic. You want to move to America, but you hate America. Why not just move elsewhere then? Is there something that America has that you can't find anywhere else?
- mfringel 8y ago
  It appears that you have conflated "hating America" with "hating the current President and his policies". Can you say more about that?
- puranjay 8y ago
  That's exactly what I meant: that I'd just take my labor elsewhere. I have no intention of immigrating to America in the near future; it will take someone like Obama in power again for me to think otherwise. There are other labor markets that are happy to put out the welcome mat for me The sad thing is that I studied in America for two years and can't reconcile the current rhetoric with the memories I had

naravara 8y ago

There is no way you can be this gullible. There is absolutely rhetoric and action being taken against all immigrants. The "illegal" label is a canard, and being as how our immigration laws are largely arbitrary and nonsensical, not even a very logical one. Passports are being denied to US citizens and their documentation is being deemed invalid based on no evidence and no due process: https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administration-denying-passports-us-002901041.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administration-denying-pass... Steve Bannon talks about how even legal immigrants from South Asia don't fit into America's "civic society" (whatever that means): https://boingboing.net/2016/11/17/steve-bannon-wants-to-deport-a.html https://boingboing.net/2016/11/17/steve-bannon-wants-to-depo... ICE reserves the right to detail and interrogate people about their immigration status as a matter of course, and their only rubric for "suspicion" is "person is Brown." http://www.witf.org/news/2018/07/how-racial-profiling-goes-unchecked-in-immigration-enforcement.php http://www.witf.org/news/2018/07/how-racial-profiling-goes-u...

TheCoelacanth 8y ago

"Chain migration", "extreme vetting", people legally seeking asylum are "gaming the system", "turn off the jobs and benefits magnet", "Massive demographic changes have been foisted upon the American people. And they’re changes that none of us ever voted for and most of us don’t like", "almost every student that comes over [from China] is a spy", we admit too many immigrants from "shitholes" If you haven't seen rhetoric against legal immigration, you haven't been paying attention.