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At a certain level of income/wealth, the time spent traveling is valued higher than the dollar amount. That’s why premium airlines include first class suites wi

At a certain level of income/wealth, the time spent traveling is valued higher than the dollar amount. That’s why premium airlines include first class suites with beds. If those offerings weren’t profitable they wouldn’t exist.

nostrademons 8y ago
The problem is that the market segments such that these travelers are no longer served by commercial aviation. If you are the sort of person whose time is worth $10K/hour, you fly private. You get your bed, and gym, and first-class suite and attendants who wait on your every move, and you also don't have to go through security or wait in the terminal or deal with other passengers. The lie-flat business class seats aren't actually for those sorts of people, they are for ordinary corporate mid-level employees who fly for business. I have some Googler friends in Australia who will regularly take the bed-seats on the Sydney => SFO run. The company pays for it - when you're going to be paying the employee $10K anyway for the two weeks they're away, and they're generating well over that in value by having the next 3 months of work synced up with what the home office is doing, why would you not?
- sseveran 8y ago
  Its actually not quite that simple for long distance flying. Most private jets are not G650ERs which have a good long range and can fly a route that an airline might use a 777 or A350 for. The G650 sleeps 10 so you probably wouldn't want more than that for a long hall flight. And I mean if someone was going to let me fly a 650 for the same price as international business I would do it. Figure operating a long range jet runs about $5K per hour exclusive of actually buying and financing the plane. So the flight I am going to take in a couple of months would be roughly $65000 in variable costs. Even at making 10K per hour ($20M per year) its going to get quite pricey to fly a long range private jet. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/16/hourly-operating-costs-of-45-jets-compared https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/1...
QuercusMax 8y ago
Yes, at those levels it's basically a tossup between private jet and premium first class.
- lisper 8y ago
  Actually, compared to a private jet, commercial first class is ridiculously cheap, like an order of magnitude less.
  - bradknowles 8y ago
    Which is why they avoid first class like the plague. Who would want to have to put up with all those plebes?
    - isostatic 8y ago
      Indeed. The ones who complain about passengers ruining their first class flight are funny - they don't realise they're travelling on public transport.
    - mercutio2 8y ago
      That’s the stereotype, but in many (most?) cases the actual reason is about time, not brushing shoulders with the merely megarich. Very rich people spend money to avoid ever waiting for anything or anyone who isn’t a close acquaintance or high status person. This is what private planes optimize for.
sandworm101 8y ago
Depends. If that nice seat takes up 10x the space of an ecomony seat, it better cost at least 10x as much. Otherwise, the economy class cabin would be subsidizing the first class cabin. As prices ebb and flow, surely this does sometimes happen.
- fyfy18 8y ago
  A few years ago I was listening to an interview with (I believe) Tim Clark, president of Emirates, and he said that just by filling up business class - which happens most of the time - alone, their A380 flights from DXB to LHR are turning a profit. So the other 400 passengers in economy are a bonus.
  - sseveran 8y ago
    Wendover did a great video on just this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    But that doesnt mean they arent paying more per foot. Profitability and the ratio between classes are different concepts.
  - GFischer 8y ago
    Yes, business class is basically what pays for the trip. It's the business travelers that are subsidizing the economy ones, not the other way round. So it doesn't make sense to make economy more comfortable, actually the opposite.
    - awucs 8y ago
      Usually one tends to put it the other way, that economy pays for the trip and business class delivers the profit. Which makes sense because that is how e.g. a low cost carrier operates. While business class only flights are almost non-existent even though that in theory would make more money.

nostrademons 8y ago

The problem is that the market segments such that these travelers are no longer served by commercial aviation. If you are the sort of person whose time is worth $10K/hour, you fly private. You get your bed, and gym, and first-class suite and attendants who wait on your every move, and you also don't have to go through security or wait in the terminal or deal with other passengers. The lie-flat business class seats aren't actually for those sorts of people, they are for ordinary corporate mid-level employees who fly for business. I have some Googler friends in Australia who will regularly take the bed-seats on the Sydney => SFO run. The company pays for it - when you're going to be paying the employee $10K anyway for the two weeks they're away, and they're generating well over that in value by having the next 3 months of work synced up with what the home office is doing, why would you not?

sseveran 8y ago
Its actually not quite that simple for long distance flying. Most private jets are not G650ERs which have a good long range and can fly a route that an airline might use a 777 or A350 for. The G650 sleeps 10 so you probably wouldn't want more than that for a long hall flight. And I mean if someone was going to let me fly a 650 for the same price as international business I would do it. Figure operating a long range jet runs about $5K per hour exclusive of actually buying and financing the plane. So the flight I am going to take in a couple of months would be roughly $65000 in variable costs. Even at making 10K per hour ($20M per year) its going to get quite pricey to fly a long range private jet. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/16/hourly-operating-costs-of-45-jets-compared https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/1...

QuercusMax 8y ago

Yes, at those levels it's basically a tossup between private jet and premium first class.

lisper 8y ago
Actually, compared to a private jet, commercial first class is ridiculously cheap, like an order of magnitude less.
- bradknowles 8y ago
  Which is why they avoid first class like the plague. Who would want to have to put up with all those plebes?
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Indeed. The ones who complain about passengers ruining their first class flight are funny - they don't realise they're travelling on public transport.
  - mercutio2 8y ago
    That’s the stereotype, but in many (most?) cases the actual reason is about time, not brushing shoulders with the merely megarich. Very rich people spend money to avoid ever waiting for anything or anyone who isn’t a close acquaintance or high status person. This is what private planes optimize for.

sandworm101 8y ago

Depends. If that nice seat takes up 10x the space of an ecomony seat, it better cost at least 10x as much. Otherwise, the economy class cabin would be subsidizing the first class cabin. As prices ebb and flow, surely this does sometimes happen.

fyfy18 8y ago
A few years ago I was listening to an interview with (I believe) Tim Clark, president of Emirates, and he said that just by filling up business class - which happens most of the time - alone, their A380 flights from DXB to LHR are turning a profit. So the other 400 passengers in economy are a bonus.
- sseveran 8y ago
  Wendover did a great video on just this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzB5xtGGsTc
- sandworm101 8y ago
  But that doesnt mean they arent paying more per foot. Profitability and the ratio between classes are different concepts.
- GFischer 8y ago
  Yes, business class is basically what pays for the trip. It's the business travelers that are subsidizing the economy ones, not the other way round. So it doesn't make sense to make economy more comfortable, actually the opposite.
  - awucs 8y ago
    Usually one tends to put it the other way, that economy pays for the trip and business class delivers the profit. Which makes sense because that is how e.g. a low cost carrier operates. While business class only flights are almost non-existent even though that in theory would make more money.