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This article/issue is about non-white applicants (Asian Americans) who are being discriminated against in the admissions process. And not just at Harvard but ot

by themgt 8y ago

This article/issue is about non-white applicants (Asian Americans) who are being discriminated against in the admissions process. And not just at Harvard but other elite schools, med schools, etc. It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group who is being discriminated against under affirmative action because their superior test scores would otherwise leave them hugely overrepresented vs. other groups. Are we supposed to trace back how Asian overperformance is due to a history of institutional racism against whites in the USA? Or is the fact of a non-white group outperforming whites and then being discriminated against so counter to the narrative people want about race and affirmative action that they just go back to talking about Jim Crow? What are these Asian applicants supposed to do, just accept that they are held to higher standards than any other group? If Asians would just stop doing so well on the SAT we wouldn't have to discriminate against them ... Asian incarceration rates are also lower than that of whites, another fact difficult to explain through the prism of institutional white supremacy.

40acres 8y ago
Solid point, I really feel for Asian kids and parents who are being discriminated against. The reason why these discussions usually end up in a discussion of black v. white is because (in my opinion) that "struggle" affects every aspect of American life, whether or not you are aware of it or have any influence. Colleges like Harvard and companies like Google want a more diverse population and are willing to shape policy based on that; if America was truly a place of equal opportunity they would not need to bend their policies to reach out to marginalized groups at the expense of others who should qualify based on merit. If we want to remove the need for Affirmative Action we need to solve the underlying issues which made it seem so viable in the first place.
- seatdrummer 8y ago
  Many proponents of AA may admit that things are near fair now, but they used to be much worse. so AA this is just reparations for the past injustice. If that is the case then fixing underlying issues would have less of an effect than we would expect. It makes sense because if most black children grow up in poor fatherless homes (and that is the cause of the majority of inequality), its not because white people are discriminating but maybe because that is just the state the black people are facing. A good (race agnostic) way to solve it is just account for the fact the someone is fatherless and they come from low income households. Totally eliminates race. Blacks will still be helped but unfortunately asian individuals will still have a large hurdle[0] 0 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
Alex3917 8y ago
> Asian incarceration rates are also lower than that of whites, another fact difficult to explain through the prism of institutional white supremacy. It was almost impossible for Asians to come to the U.S. before 1965. Wait another couple hundred years and check back on whether there is a reversion to the mean.
- sbierwagen 8y ago
  These are crime rates, independent of total population. 1.009% of US Asians were arrested for any crime in 2016. 2.782% of US whites were arrested the same year: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Less than half the arrest rate.
tptacek 8y ago
It is in fact not difficult to explain carceral inequality through the prism of white supremacy, as "whiteness" is a fluid concept largely defined in specific opposition to "black" people; historically, it's adapted as needed to embrace formerly "non-white" people (the Irish, Italians, Jewish people) in solidarity against encroaching black people (for instance, during the Great Migration). A useful thing to keep in mind is that "black", as in "African American", actually is a sort of synthesized ethnicity (their original cultures having been stripped from them in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade)... but "white" is not. There are Irish people and there are Slavic people and there are Sicilian people, and their cultures are not in fact all that similar. "White" just means what it needs to mean. All you need to add to your mental model of "white" and "black" to fit low Asian American incarceration into it is the idea that Asians will soon attain "honorary white" status. That's not a message board concept; the transition of Asians from "model minority" to "white people" is much discussed in the real world as well.
- InfiniteBeing 8y ago
  White is still very synthesized as European Americans generally have mixed ancestral origins. I don't foresee Asians being seen as white people. Their origins are much different than the Irish, Italian and even Jewish cases. Perhaps certain people such as yourself would do so as an adjustment to allow you to continue viewing through your same prism rather than getting a new prism.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    People such as myself and everyone who's written a scholarly article or magazine essays about when and how Asians have/will become "white"? Because, like I said, this isn't my idea.
    - InfiniteBeing 8y ago
      I never claimed it was your idea. It's just people who think like this want to claim that every successful non-white group of people are white to continue viewing reality through a faulty prism.
jsoc815 8y ago
Advance TLDR; See previous post from a few months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17335887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17335887) or continue below... > It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group... Actually, it's not bizarre at all. In fact, the long unsettled distraction of "black" vs. "white" is entirely what this whole dust-up is about. And while the particular case being litigated involves "Asian" students, the people/group funding the suit are non-Asian, IIRC. In fact, I believe they(the funders) actually did something of a casting call to find their plantiff(s), which isn't altogether uncommon. This case, ties into the previous anti-affirmative action cases that did not deliver the desired death blow. I don't have time (or interest really) to dig up old articles and such, but you shouldn't have any difficulty validating what I'm saying here if you are interested in doing so. Also, there isn't much concern about Asian students who perform well on the requisite tests outnumbering other groups. The concern is about their outnumbering one group. W/all due respect, this should be pretty clear to anyone who understands the historical mission(s)-- which aren't all that different from those of current-- of such elite institutions. It's even clearer if one reads a little history (of the schools or broader society, your choice). With respect to your question(s) about institutional racism, I'm not sure if you ask in earnest or are being rhetorical, so I beg forgiveness in advance. The simple fact of the matter is that the whole issue consists of many moving parts and circumstances. You say "Asian", but who are we even really talking about? That's a pretty diverse population. And it doesn't consist solely, or even mostly, of superior performers. All of the dysfunctions that many like to label as being exclusively 'Black' or (maybe) 'Hispanic' can easily be found among "Asians", too. And we still haven't even gotten to talking about which "Asians" from "Asia" are here and how they got here, or why. > What are these Asian applicants supposed to do... 1) Question whether their understanding of admissions criteria is correct; If they believe that their understanding of the admissions criteria is correct (I don't believe that it is based on personal experience/inside knowledge and research), and they believe that they meet the criteria for admission, then... 2) Start asking some very tough questions about why the bar is lower for everyone else; or 3) Opt out and do their own thing instead of seeking validation from, and validating, a system that for whatever reason(s) doesn't seem to value them appropriately. Again, the entire issue is pretty complex, far more so than I've ever seen anyone here make it out to be. Which is why I hope you'll actually check out the video in the linked post.

by themgt 8y ago

40acres 8y ago

Solid point, I really feel for Asian kids and parents who are being discriminated against. The reason why these discussions usually end up in a discussion of black v. white is because (in my opinion) that "struggle" affects every aspect of American life, whether or not you are aware of it or have any influence. Colleges like Harvard and companies like Google want a more diverse population and are willing to shape policy based on that; if America was truly a place of equal opportunity they would not need to bend their policies to reach out to marginalized groups at the expense of others who should qualify based on merit. If we want to remove the need for Affirmative Action we need to solve the underlying issues which made it seem so viable in the first place.

seatdrummer 8y ago
Many proponents of AA may admit that things are near fair now, but they used to be much worse. so AA this is just reparations for the past injustice. If that is the case then fixing underlying issues would have less of an effect than we would expect. It makes sense because if most black children grow up in poor fatherless homes (and that is the cause of the majority of inequality), its not because white people are discriminating but maybe because that is just the state the black people are facing. A good (race agnostic) way to solve it is just account for the fact the someone is fatherless and they come from low income households. Totally eliminates race. Blacks will still be helped but unfortunately asian individuals will still have a large hurdle[0] 0 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...

Alex3917 8y ago

> Asian incarceration rates are also lower than that of whites, another fact difficult to explain through the prism of institutional white supremacy. It was almost impossible for Asians to come to the U.S. before 1965. Wait another couple hundred years and check back on whether there is a reversion to the mean.

sbierwagen 8y ago
These are crime rates, independent of total population. 1.009% of US Asians were arrested for any crime in 2016. 2.782% of US whites were arrested the same year: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-... Less than half the arrest rate.

tptacek 8y ago

It is in fact not difficult to explain carceral inequality through the prism of white supremacy, as "whiteness" is a fluid concept largely defined in specific opposition to "black" people; historically, it's adapted as needed to embrace formerly "non-white" people (the Irish, Italians, Jewish people) in solidarity against encroaching black people (for instance, during the Great Migration). A useful thing to keep in mind is that "black", as in "African American", actually is a sort of synthesized ethnicity (their original cultures having been stripped from them in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade)... but "white" is not. There are Irish people and there are Slavic people and there are Sicilian people, and their cultures are not in fact all that similar. "White" just means what it needs to mean. All you need to add to your mental model of "white" and "black" to fit low Asian American incarceration into it is the idea that Asians will soon attain "honorary white" status. That's not a message board concept; the transition of Asians from "model minority" to "white people" is much discussed in the real world as well.

InfiniteBeing 8y ago
White is still very synthesized as European Americans generally have mixed ancestral origins. I don't foresee Asians being seen as white people. Their origins are much different than the Irish, Italian and even Jewish cases. Perhaps certain people such as yourself would do so as an adjustment to allow you to continue viewing through your same prism rather than getting a new prism.
- tptacek 8y ago
  People such as myself and everyone who's written a scholarly article or magazine essays about when and how Asians have/will become "white"? Because, like I said, this isn't my idea.
  - InfiniteBeing 8y ago
    I never claimed it was your idea. It's just people who think like this want to claim that every successful non-white group of people are white to continue viewing reality through a faulty prism.

jsoc815 8y ago

Advance TLDR; See previous post from a few months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17335887 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17335887) or continue below... > It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group... Actually, it's not bizarre at all. In fact, the long unsettled distraction of "black" vs. "white" is entirely what this whole dust-up is about. And while the particular case being litigated involves "Asian" students, the people/group funding the suit are non-Asian, IIRC. In fact, I believe they(the funders) actually did something of a casting call to find their plantiff(s), which isn't altogether uncommon. This case, ties into the previous anti-affirmative action cases that did not deliver the desired death blow. I don't have time (or interest really) to dig up old articles and such, but you shouldn't have any difficulty validating what I'm saying here if you are interested in doing so. Also, there isn't much concern about Asian students who perform well on the requisite tests outnumbering other groups. The concern is about their outnumbering one group. W/all due respect, this should be pretty clear to anyone who understands the historical mission(s)-- which aren't all that different from those of current-- of such elite institutions. It's even clearer if one reads a little history (of the schools or broader society, your choice). With respect to your question(s) about institutional racism, I'm not sure if you ask in earnest or are being rhetorical, so I beg forgiveness in advance. The simple fact of the matter is that the whole issue consists of many moving parts and circumstances. You say "Asian", but who are we even really talking about? That's a pretty diverse population. And it doesn't consist solely, or even mostly, of superior performers. All of the dysfunctions that many like to label as being exclusively 'Black' or (maybe) 'Hispanic' can easily be found among "Asians", too. And we still haven't even gotten to talking about which "Asians" from "Asia" are here and how they got here, or why. > What are these Asian applicants supposed to do... 1) Question whether their understanding of admissions criteria is correct; If they believe that their understanding of the admissions criteria is correct (I don't believe that it is based on personal experience/inside knowledge and research), and they believe that they meet the criteria for admission, then... 2) Start asking some very tough questions about why the bar is lower for everyone else; or 3) Opt out and do their own thing instead of seeking validation from, and validating, a system that for whatever reason(s) doesn't seem to value them appropriately. Again, the entire issue is pretty complex, far more so than I've ever seen anyone here make it out to be. Which is why I hope you'll actually check out the video in the linked post.