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I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

jessaustin 8y ago
That argument is plausible, in general. In this specific case, I don't think it is. Harvard admissions policy benefits at least as many white applicants as non-Asian minority applicants.
mberning 8y ago
Yeah, that is bonkers. Let’s use some actual racism to fix some other deficiency, which we assume is the result of some previous racism.
- malcolmgreaves 8y ago
  Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
- vkou 8y ago
  If the deficiency is not the result of previous racism, what is it the result of?
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    Take a completely random sampling of 1 million people from populations all across the world. And in fact, take them from the day of birth to avoid any sort of early biases (actually 'harbor' the parents from the day of conception to avoid any sort of prenatal differences). And now put all of these million people on a completely homogenous and equally fertile chunk of land on an island. Raise each and every single one of them identically until they are of an age to take care of themselves. Give each and every one of them the exact same amount of starting 'capital' and set them free to achieve as they will. 200 years later, with a population that's multiplied several magnitudes over - would you expect to still see a completely equal people? I wouldn't. People are different. And each child that is born is different, even when born to the same parents. Even identical twins are no longer completely identical by the time of birth. These differences express themselves in different ways (and wow was that the most tautological statement ever), but the point is that I think it's highly illogical to expect to see equality. Out of genuine curiosity, do you disagree?
    - vilmosi 8y ago
      > 200 years later, with a population that's multiplied several magnitudes over - would you expect to still see a completely equal people? I wouldn't I would. South Koreans are 2-3 inches taller than North Koreans, plus a miriad of other biological differences, in a relatively short span of time. This is for the same ethnicity, yet alone race. For me, that alone is proof we are much more similar than we think, and environmental factors, which your hypothetical scenario accounts for perfectly, has a much greater impact on us compared to genetics. Which is why, for perfectly randomly selected humans raised identically for 200 years, I would not expect significant differences.
706f6f70 8y ago
The short of it is that the ACLU consider affirmative action a form of just racism. This form of racism corrects for past transgressions, helps achieve diversity targets, and "keeps the doors open" for minorities, so they consider it not only morally justifiable, but commendable. Their position paper on affirmative action is available here: https://www.aclu.org/other/affirmative-action-aclu-position-paper?redirect=cpredirect/15885 https://www.aclu.org/other/affirmative-action-aclu-position-... and I think it illustrates not only their rationale, but the tone of their support for that philosophy. Fair disclaimer that I am obviously opposed to this approach and have been cautiously skeptical of the ACLU for a while now.
- malcolmgreaves 8y ago
  Actually it's a form of racial discrimination that is countering racism.
  - lainga 8y ago
    ...what separates racial discrimination from racism?
    - creaghpatr 8y ago
      Your race
malcolmgreaves 8y ago
Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, culture, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
- jaisfj 8y ago
  No. Racism is: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
  - malcolmgreaves 8y ago
    Incorrect: you're probably grabbing the Webster dictionary definition. Which is made by white people. Your go to citing is an example of racsim: control the definitions to make everything better for white poeple (and make it seem like white people can be affected by racsim hah!). This is probably the first time you've heard this fact: racism is systematic, instutionalized, collective, cultural, social oppression of people of color for the benefit of white people.
    - jaisfj 8y ago
      Non-white people can go back to wherever they came from if they're so uncomfortable in the first world.
      - sctb 8y ago
        We've banned this account.
    - camjohnson26 8y ago
      It's true that there's a difference between discrimination and racism. Racism is under the surface and hard to quantify, but it's a real thing that affects people. Discrimination is more obvious and in your face.
tdb7893 8y ago
My view on it is that all ethnicities are necessarily equal (no race is smarter than any other) so large scale differences in admissions are the result of cultural and historical circumstances. By picking off most metrics you will get a "better" student body by those metrics but you are also responsible for perpetuating those biases. In addition to this philosophical reasons there is the practical reason that diversity can increase access to new ideas (and generally overall team performance) and can also make it much easier to recruit a wider set of people so it's not an absurd goal from a practical standpoint.
- atribd 8y ago
  > My view on it is that all ethnicities are necessarily equal (no race is smarter than any other) I'm curious as to why you think that should necessarily be the case.
  - tdb7893 8y ago
    I'm referring to things that affect ability (things like skin color are different but not unequal in this regard). Even if certain small communities had some variations they become meaningless once you reach the scale of "asian", "european", or even just "chinese" so once your are talking about a group of any significant size it averages out. I used the term "necessarily" because by statistics on that large of a sample they will be equal unless there is a reason to think the underlying distribution between those groups is different (which I don't think there is on a large scale).
    - uhohnotgood 8y ago
      I'm skeptical. There are clear physical distinctions between different races. Africans clearly have blacker skin, a different facial structure, and different hair types compared to Nordics. Unless one is going to argue that there are no genetic differences between individuals in the brain, it seems unlikely to me that different races don't have different brains in some fashion.
  - lmpostor 8y ago

jessaustin 8y ago

That argument is plausible, in general. In this specific case, I don't think it is. Harvard admissions policy benefits at least as many white applicants as non-Asian minority applicants.

mberning 8y ago

Yeah, that is bonkers. Let’s use some actual racism to fix some other deficiency, which we assume is the result of some previous racism.

malcolmgreaves 8y ago
Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
vkou 8y ago
If the deficiency is not the result of previous racism, what is it the result of?
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  Take a completely random sampling of 1 million people from populations all across the world. And in fact, take them from the day of birth to avoid any sort of early biases (actually 'harbor' the parents from the day of conception to avoid any sort of prenatal differences). And now put all of these million people on a completely homogenous and equally fertile chunk of land on an island. Raise each and every single one of them identically until they are of an age to take care of themselves. Give each and every one of them the exact same amount of starting 'capital' and set them free to achieve as they will. 200 years later, with a population that's multiplied several magnitudes over - would you expect to still see a completely equal people? I wouldn't. People are different. And each child that is born is different, even when born to the same parents. Even identical twins are no longer completely identical by the time of birth. These differences express themselves in different ways (and wow was that the most tautological statement ever), but the point is that I think it's highly illogical to expect to see equality. Out of genuine curiosity, do you disagree?
  - vilmosi 8y ago
    > 200 years later, with a population that's multiplied several magnitudes over - would you expect to still see a completely equal people? I wouldn't I would. South Koreans are 2-3 inches taller than North Koreans, plus a miriad of other biological differences, in a relatively short span of time. This is for the same ethnicity, yet alone race. For me, that alone is proof we are much more similar than we think, and environmental factors, which your hypothetical scenario accounts for perfectly, has a much greater impact on us compared to genetics. Which is why, for perfectly randomly selected humans raised identically for 200 years, I would not expect significant differences.

706f6f70 8y ago

The short of it is that the ACLU consider affirmative action a form of just racism. This form of racism corrects for past transgressions, helps achieve diversity targets, and "keeps the doors open" for minorities, so they consider it not only morally justifiable, but commendable. Their position paper on affirmative action is available here: https://www.aclu.org/other/affirmative-action-aclu-position-paper?redirect=cpredirect/15885 https://www.aclu.org/other/affirmative-action-aclu-position-... and I think it illustrates not only their rationale, but the tone of their support for that philosophy. Fair disclaimer that I am obviously opposed to this approach and have been cautiously skeptical of the ACLU for a while now.

malcolmgreaves 8y ago
Actually it's a form of racial discrimination that is countering racism.
- lainga 8y ago
  ...what separates racial discrimination from racism?
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
    Your race

malcolmgreaves 8y ago

Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, culture, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.

jaisfj 8y ago
No. Racism is: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"
- malcolmgreaves 8y ago
  Incorrect: you're probably grabbing the Webster dictionary definition. Which is made by white people. Your go to citing is an example of racsim: control the definitions to make everything better for white poeple (and make it seem like white people can be affected by racsim hah!). This is probably the first time you've heard this fact: racism is systematic, instutionalized, collective, cultural, social oppression of people of color for the benefit of white people.
  - jaisfj 8y ago
    Non-white people can go back to wherever they came from if they're so uncomfortable in the first world.
    - sctb 8y ago
      We've banned this account.
  - camjohnson26 8y ago
    It's true that there's a difference between discrimination and racism. Racism is under the surface and hard to quantify, but it's a real thing that affects people. Discrimination is more obvious and in your face.

tdb7893 8y ago

My view on it is that all ethnicities are necessarily equal (no race is smarter than any other) so large scale differences in admissions are the result of cultural and historical circumstances. By picking off most metrics you will get a "better" student body by those metrics but you are also responsible for perpetuating those biases. In addition to this philosophical reasons there is the practical reason that diversity can increase access to new ideas (and generally overall team performance) and can also make it much easier to recruit a wider set of people so it's not an absurd goal from a practical standpoint.

atribd 8y ago
> My view on it is that all ethnicities are necessarily equal (no race is smarter than any other) I'm curious as to why you think that should necessarily be the case.
- tdb7893 8y ago
  I'm referring to things that affect ability (things like skin color are different but not unequal in this regard). Even if certain small communities had some variations they become meaningless once you reach the scale of "asian", "european", or even just "chinese" so once your are talking about a group of any significant size it averages out. I used the term "necessarily" because by statistics on that large of a sample they will be equal unless there is a reason to think the underlying distribution between those groups is different (which I don't think there is on a large scale).
  - uhohnotgood 8y ago
    I'm skeptical. There are clear physical distinctions between different races. Africans clearly have blacker skin, a different facial structure, and different hair types compared to Nordics. Unless one is going to argue that there are no genetic differences between individuals in the brain, it seems unlikely to me that different races don't have different brains in some fashion.
- lmpostor 8y ago