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Equivalent Bloomberg article [0] mentions that the ACLU has taken Harvard's side, and they state [1]: While the DOJ’s brief does not challenge Supreme Court pr

by lainga 8y ago

Equivalent Bloomberg article [0] mentions that the ACLU has taken Harvard's side, and they state [1]: While the DOJ’s brief does not challenge Supreme Court precedent granting universities the right to freely select their own student body—presumably because it cannot do so at this stage of the litigation—the Trump administration has advocated for “race-blind” policies, which Harvard and virtually all other universities have found are demonstrably insufficient to achieve meaningful diversity, given the reality of historic and continuing racial discrimination in this country. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-30/doj-backs-asian-americans-in-harvard-discrimination-lawsuit https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-30/doj-backs... [1] https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-statement-department-justice-filing-harvard-university-admissions-lawsuit https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-statement-department-justice-...

pastor_elm 8y ago
Disappointed in what the ACLU has become. I don't think their fundamental intentions are off, but in order to raise money in an anti-Trump era, they've definitely veered off course in practice. EDIT: For those downvoting me, you should give this a listen: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/podcasts/the-daily/aclu-nra-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/podcasts/the-daily/aclu-n...
- malcolmgreaves 8y ago
  Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
  - arif_sohaib 8y ago
    Brown guy in the US here. And Muslim and Pakistani. What kind of racism do you think I face? I felt more discrimination in Pakistan for being short and quiet and not having a deep voice than I ever did in the US for being brown, Muslim and Pakistani. I have been sent through the express lane many times at airport check-in, I have prayed openly(in a corner) at 2 airports, I have worked with a Christian Republican who dropped me off at a mosque on my request and reminded me of prayer times. I know this is anecdotal but I firmly believe the issue is pure economics + upgringing. I happen to be a moderately rich Pakistani Muslim from a happy and close-knit family, a white person with less income and/or bad family life will have it much harder in the US than I do and thanks to affarmative action, he will have a much harder time getting into an ivy league school than any member of my family or any rich/happy Black or Hispanic family.
    - BadassFractal 8y ago
      Like you said, "brown guys" seem do be doing alright: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...
castlecrasher2 8y ago
I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  That argument is plausible, in general. In this specific case, I don't think it is. Harvard admissions policy benefits at least as many white applicants as non-Asian minority applicants.
- mberning 8y ago
  Yeah, that is bonkers. Let’s use some actual racism to fix some other deficiency, which we assume is the result of some previous racism.
  - malcolmgreaves 8y ago
    Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
  - vkou 8y ago
    If the deficiency is not the result of previous racism, what is it the result of?
    - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
      Take a completely random sampling of 1 million people from populations all across the world. And in fact, take them from the day of birth to avoid any sort of early biases (actually 'harbor' the parents from the day of conception to avoid any sort of prenatal differences). And now put all of these million people on a completely homogenous and equally fertile chunk of land on an island. Raise each and every single one of them identically until they are of an age to take care of themselves. Give each and every one of them the exact same amount of starting 'capital' and set them free to achieve as they will. 200 years later, with a population that's multiplied several magnitudes over - would you expect to still see a completely equal people? I wouldn't. People are different. And each child that is born is different, even when born to the same parents. Even identical twins are no longer completely identical by the time of birth. These differences express themselves in different ways (and wow was that the most tautological statement ever), but the point is that I think it's highly illogical to expect to see equality. Out of genuine curiosity, do you disagree?
zyang 8y ago
Disappointed in ACLU's stance. Why not apply the same logic to other parts of admission and ensure Asian students receive equal share of sport scholarships.
- gowld 8y ago
  Harvard doesn't offer sports scholarships.
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
    But they offer admission based on ability to play sports, so they can mandate meaningful diversity on their sports teams that reflects the greater student body.
  - uhohnotgood 8y ago
    Along with other school propaganda like "MIT doesn't do legacy", "Ivy League doesn't offer sports scholarships" is essentially false. The implication is that the ivy leagues don't give a "free pass" to students for athletic reasons, when they do. To their credit, they aren't willing to sacrifice all pretense of "student-athletes" compared to some other schools. But there are definitely plenty of students that only get admission due to their athletic ability.
chibg10 8y ago
I find the ACLU's statement wholly unsatisfying. There is a tradeoff here: is unquestionable racism against Asian-Americans justifiable to increase advance African-American participation in higher education? There is also surely a legal question at play. The ACLU, instead of addressing either matter, launches a political statement announcing its stance without justification. Lost some respect for them here.
- malcolmgreaves 8y ago
  Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, culture, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
- gizmo686 8y ago
  The ACLU has historically taken the philosophy of defending fundemental rights by defending them for unpopular people (eg. they would defend the right of Nazi's to march in a Jewish neighboorhood). I don't know if I am looking at their past through rose colored glasses, but their new direction is disturbing. It seems like they are increasingly okay with sacrifing our fundemental rights in favor of short term expediancy. Having said that, this is still just the start of a change in course. They still do a lot of good work, and they might find their way again. The bigger problem is that liberalism is dying in the US. The ACLU is the last major liberal public group/movement and they seem to be turning away from it.
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
    They have already codified a full reversal on that historic position. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-expression-1529533065 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-exp...
- SenseiMaster 8y ago
  It annoys me how every official statement from institutions supporting affirmative action doesn't seem to acknowledge that racial discrimination is happening and is actively harming individuals. Any reasonable person would at least acknowledge the trade-off between racial discrimination and racial diversity.

by lainga 8y ago

pastor_elm 8y ago

Disappointed in what the ACLU has become. I don't think their fundamental intentions are off, but in order to raise money in an anti-Trump era, they've definitely veered off course in practice. EDIT: For those downvoting me, you should give this a listen: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/podcasts/the-daily/aclu-nra-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/podcasts/the-daily/aclu-n...

malcolmgreaves 8y ago
Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
- arif_sohaib 8y ago
  Brown guy in the US here. And Muslim and Pakistani. What kind of racism do you think I face? I felt more discrimination in Pakistan for being short and quiet and not having a deep voice than I ever did in the US for being brown, Muslim and Pakistani. I have been sent through the express lane many times at airport check-in, I have prayed openly(in a corner) at 2 airports, I have worked with a Christian Republican who dropped me off at a mosque on my request and reminded me of prayer times. I know this is anecdotal but I firmly believe the issue is pure economics + upgringing. I happen to be a moderately rich Pakistani Muslim from a happy and close-knit family, a white person with less income and/or bad family life will have it much harder in the US than I do and thanks to affarmative action, he will have a much harder time getting into an ivy league school than any member of my family or any rich/happy Black or Hispanic family.
  - BadassFractal 8y ago
    Like you said, "brown guys" seem do be doing alright: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U...

castlecrasher2 8y ago

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

jessaustin 8y ago
That argument is plausible, in general. In this specific case, I don't think it is. Harvard admissions policy benefits at least as many white applicants as non-Asian minority applicants.
mberning 8y ago
Yeah, that is bonkers. Let’s use some actual racism to fix some other deficiency, which we assume is the result of some previous racism.
- malcolmgreaves 8y ago
  Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
- vkou 8y ago
  If the deficiency is not the result of previous racism, what is it the result of?
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    Take a completely random sampling of 1 million people from populations all across the world. And in fact, take them from the day of birth to avoid any sort of early biases (actually 'harbor' the parents from the day of conception to avoid any sort of prenatal differences). And now put all of these million people on a completely homogenous and equally fertile chunk of land on an island. Raise each and every single one of them identically until they are of an age to take care of themselves. Give each and every one of them the exact same amount of starting 'capital' and set them free to achieve as they will. 200 years later, with a population that's multiplied several magnitudes over - would you expect to still see a completely equal people? I wouldn't. People are different. And each child that is born is different, even when born to the same parents. Even identical twins are no longer completely identical by the time of birth. These differences express themselves in different ways (and wow was that the most tautological statement ever), but the point is that I think it's highly illogical to expect to see equality. Out of genuine curiosity, do you disagree?

zyang 8y ago

Disappointed in ACLU's stance. Why not apply the same logic to other parts of admission and ensure Asian students receive equal share of sport scholarships.

gowld 8y ago
Harvard doesn't offer sports scholarships.
- creaghpatr 8y ago
  But they offer admission based on ability to play sports, so they can mandate meaningful diversity on their sports teams that reflects the greater student body.
- uhohnotgood 8y ago
  Along with other school propaganda like "MIT doesn't do legacy", "Ivy League doesn't offer sports scholarships" is essentially false. The implication is that the ivy leagues don't give a "free pass" to students for athletic reasons, when they do. To their credit, they aren't willing to sacrifice all pretense of "student-athletes" compared to some other schools. But there are definitely plenty of students that only get admission due to their athletic ability.

chibg10 8y ago

I find the ACLU's statement wholly unsatisfying. There is a tradeoff here: is unquestionable racism against Asian-Americans justifiable to increase advance African-American participation in higher education? There is also surely a legal question at play. The ACLU, instead of addressing either matter, launches a political statement announcing its stance without justification. Lost some respect for them here.

malcolmgreaves 8y ago
Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, culture, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.
gizmo686 8y ago
The ACLU has historically taken the philosophy of defending fundemental rights by defending them for unpopular people (eg. they would defend the right of Nazi's to march in a Jewish neighboorhood). I don't know if I am looking at their past through rose colored glasses, but their new direction is disturbing. It seems like they are increasingly okay with sacrifing our fundemental rights in favor of short term expediancy. Having said that, this is still just the start of a change in course. They still do a lot of good work, and they might find their way again. The bigger problem is that liberalism is dying in the US. The ACLU is the last major liberal public group/movement and they seem to be turning away from it.
- creaghpatr 8y ago
  They have already codified a full reversal on that historic position. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-expression-1529533065 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-aclu-retreats-from-free-exp...
SenseiMaster 8y ago
It annoys me how every official statement from institutions supporting affirmative action doesn't seem to acknowledge that racial discrimination is happening and is actively harming individuals. Any reasonable person would at least acknowledge the trade-off between racial discrimination and racial diversity.