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And the dream and hope of a free and open internet suffers a death by a thousand cuts. It seems like the powerful around the world are competing with each othe

And the dream and hope of a free and open internet suffers a death by a thousand cuts. It seems like the powerful around the world are competing with each other to see who can censor and control the internet the most. And of course they all, to the last man, claim it is for the benefit of the people.

snaky 8y ago
That's not exactly "powerful around the world" who are routinely vote for more censorship in democratic countries. There is no strict difference between "hate speech", "fake news" and "online rumours".
- Bizarro 8y ago
  And many in the HN community regularly call for censorship - under the guise of "regulation".
  - mc32 8y ago
    That’s because people want freedom of speech but only their interpretation of free speech, which is why freedom of spreech, with very narrow exceptions, is crucial.
  - i_am_nomad 8y ago
    To be fair, I have never seen this on HN. You may still be right, I've just never seen it. (Maybe those calls for censorship are themselves getting censored?)
    - creaghpatr 8y ago
      Plenty of people on HN take the position that private companies should deny their platform to unsavory voices, and this position has its own spectrum of views about where those lines can/should be drawn.
    - bittcto 8y ago
      HN has a long history of censoring particular groups of people based on identity. That’s why it’s become such a monoculture (a monoculture of people generally convinced than HN is diverse, however.) Down voting things you disagree with despite being well articulated (in fact because they are well articulated) is a form of censorship here. But of course it goes much further when shadowbanning is deployed to enforce the narrow and rigid views of the moderation team. Yes, I know pointing this out means it will now happen to me. Nothing a censor hates more than thwarting the narrative they are trying to enforce. But that’s why you think it doesn’t happen here. This is the most harshly and hypocritically cultivated walled garden on the Net. (Moderators violate their own rules regularly with impunity.) Alas, I cannot abide not pointing out these abuses.
      - com2kid 8y ago
        Click a checkbox in your profile and you can see those shadowbanned posts just fine. Very rarely are they well written or polite. I have yet to see well presented, civil, arguments censored. I have however seen entire threads criticizing HN and YCombinator staff, by name, be left alone.
        existencebox 8y ago
        A "third" perspective; I think there's at least some self-censorship (In certain dimensions, don't let me paint this as some universal or even majority thing) from people who tend to write civil, well presented arguments. You can read my post history if you want, and I've _certainly_ had some of my posts get greyed with rapidity (Obviously I selfishly found them to be innocuous but others clearly disagree, I find in situations where the status quo is _aggressively_ in one direction, even expressing moderation is caught in the blast radius), so I avoid the really hot subjects with a ten foot pole; you learn that it just doesn't end well, especially for those of us who have associated our professional lives with this site. You can notice this more obviously if you watch new, that certain topics reach and get to the front page VERY RAPIDLY and stay there, while others are flagged or fall off with prejudice. I'm not sure I'd call it a huge problem, and the parent post is probably a bit hyperbolic, (Certainly I give the mods benefit of the doubt, even though I've gently disagreed with dang via comment prior) but it's definitely present.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  Clearly that's an overstatement - I take it you mean that they are all cases of people calling for limits to speech, but 'hate speech' has clear legal definitions in many jurisdictions. We shouldn't omit 'libel' and 'slander' which are restrictions on free speech as well, though they rarely seem to cause too much outrage.
  - CompanionCuuube 8y ago
    The reason is the standards for "libel" and "slander" are strict enough that it is hard to falsely bring that charge, unlike "fake news".
protoster 8y ago
Should the internet behind the great firewall be considered a part of the global network, considering how isolated it is? I don't really consider what happens in China to be indicative of global trends. There may be similarities, for sure, but the scale is very different.
e40 8y ago
A free and open internet is a great equalizer. Powerful people don't like that because it can cause them to lose power. I think it is actually that simple.
bittcto 8y ago
Tyranny, in all its shapes and sizes, comes wrapped in claims that it is for the common good. In fact a good way to think critically about things you hear is to ask “how is the politician profiting from this law?” And noting what new powers the law gives government. If government “needs” more power with the justification of “helping people”, it may be the case that helping people is just the excuse. Government power is easy to monetize: threaten industry with worse regulations but forget the idea when you get campaign contributions, etc.

snaky 8y ago

That's not exactly "powerful around the world" who are routinely vote for more censorship in democratic countries. There is no strict difference between "hate speech", "fake news" and "online rumours".

Bizarro 8y ago
And many in the HN community regularly call for censorship - under the guise of "regulation".
- mc32 8y ago
  That’s because people want freedom of speech but only their interpretation of free speech, which is why freedom of spreech, with very narrow exceptions, is crucial.
- i_am_nomad 8y ago
  To be fair, I have never seen this on HN. You may still be right, I've just never seen it. (Maybe those calls for censorship are themselves getting censored?)
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
    Plenty of people on HN take the position that private companies should deny their platform to unsavory voices, and this position has its own spectrum of views about where those lines can/should be drawn.
  - bittcto 8y ago
    HN has a long history of censoring particular groups of people based on identity. That’s why it’s become such a monoculture (a monoculture of people generally convinced than HN is diverse, however.) Down voting things you disagree with despite being well articulated (in fact because they are well articulated) is a form of censorship here. But of course it goes much further when shadowbanning is deployed to enforce the narrow and rigid views of the moderation team. Yes, I know pointing this out means it will now happen to me. Nothing a censor hates more than thwarting the narrative they are trying to enforce. But that’s why you think it doesn’t happen here. This is the most harshly and hypocritically cultivated walled garden on the Net. (Moderators violate their own rules regularly with impunity.) Alas, I cannot abide not pointing out these abuses.
    - com2kid 8y ago
      Click a checkbox in your profile and you can see those shadowbanned posts just fine. Very rarely are they well written or polite. I have yet to see well presented, civil, arguments censored. I have however seen entire threads criticizing HN and YCombinator staff, by name, be left alone.
      - existencebox 8y ago
        A "third" perspective; I think there's at least some self-censorship (In certain dimensions, don't let me paint this as some universal or even majority thing) from people who tend to write civil, well presented arguments. You can read my post history if you want, and I've _certainly_ had some of my posts get greyed with rapidity (Obviously I selfishly found them to be innocuous but others clearly disagree, I find in situations where the status quo is _aggressively_ in one direction, even expressing moderation is caught in the blast radius), so I avoid the really hot subjects with a ten foot pole; you learn that it just doesn't end well, especially for those of us who have associated our professional lives with this site. You can notice this more obviously if you watch new, that certain topics reach and get to the front page VERY RAPIDLY and stay there, while others are flagged or fall off with prejudice. I'm not sure I'd call it a huge problem, and the parent post is probably a bit hyperbolic, (Certainly I give the mods benefit of the doubt, even though I've gently disagreed with dang via comment prior) but it's definitely present.
blacksmith_tb 8y ago
Clearly that's an overstatement - I take it you mean that they are all cases of people calling for limits to speech, but 'hate speech' has clear legal definitions in many jurisdictions. We shouldn't omit 'libel' and 'slander' which are restrictions on free speech as well, though they rarely seem to cause too much outrage.
- CompanionCuuube 8y ago
  The reason is the standards for "libel" and "slander" are strict enough that it is hard to falsely bring that charge, unlike "fake news".

protoster 8y ago

Should the internet behind the great firewall be considered a part of the global network, considering how isolated it is? I don't really consider what happens in China to be indicative of global trends. There may be similarities, for sure, but the scale is very different.

e40 8y ago

A free and open internet is a great equalizer. Powerful people don't like that because it can cause them to lose power. I think it is actually that simple.

bittcto 8y ago

Tyranny, in all its shapes and sizes, comes wrapped in claims that it is for the common good. In fact a good way to think critically about things you hear is to ask “how is the politician profiting from this law?” And noting what new powers the law gives government. If government “needs” more power with the justification of “helping people”, it may be the case that helping people is just the excuse. Government power is easy to monetize: threaten industry with worse regulations but forget the idea when you get campaign contributions, etc.