2 ms·

The question is do you call work from lab techs, programmers etc 'administrative stuff'? Also I doubt if it is a case where researchers just perform the main r

by kamaal 8y ago

The question is do you call work from lab techs, programmers etc 'administrative stuff'? Also I doubt if it is a case where researchers just perform the main rituals and others do all the remaining work. If that is true, then your researchers are effectively managers here. The real workers are lab techs, programmers etc. If we have to do this, lets put the saddle on the right horse.

lmm 8y ago
> If that is true, then your researchers are effectively managers here. The real workers are lab techs, programmers etc. That's often how it works these days. Means the university can keep most of the workers on lower pay scales and avoid having to grant them tenure.
roel_v 8y ago
"If that is true, then your researchers are effectively managers here. The real workers are lab techs, programmers etc." Well yeah. Professors are like business unit leaders/managers, acquiring funding for research and setting the main outline of what to do. Then the others (usually, although not always, designated 'administrative staff', or grad students/post docs) execute the work. I'm not sure I would call them 'real workers', that implies that others (i.e., managers) don't do 'real work'. I mean I understand what you say - you mean 'real work' as 'producing something', but 'creating the circumstances in which others can produce something' is also work.
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>you mean 'real work' as 'producing something', but 'creating the circumstances in which others can produce something' is also work. The thing is its always easy to see who 'produces something'. When you start talking about 'creating the circumstances', you trigger of a chain of helpers, who help helpers, who ... and so on. Until you arrive at a point where there is a whole hierarchy of people sitting just to approve things, keep records and pass memos.
  - roel_v 8y ago
    Well yeah, sure. That's how it works when scaling any organization. I'm not sure what I'm arguing here; I know for a fact that most universities have too much admin staff, but it's not like they all sit around all day writing reports to each other (at least not most of them). Students nowadays expect a mental health program, housing- and career advisers, clubs and events, they want to see the school in the newspapers, they want to be offered international exchanges and internships. All very understandable, but someone needs to make all that happen. Couple that with the fact that universities cannot be 'efficient' in the sense that they get as much done as possible for as little money as possible (because that's just not in the DNA of universities), and you get the current situation.
talltimtom 8y ago
It’s not about “who’s doing the real work” it’s a question of what type of work you are doing. A facilities administrator (fancy title for handyman) will have a much more hands-on part in bringing in new research equipment and setting it up. But it’s still the research staff who ordered it and will plan the experiments that get published in nature.

by kamaal 8y ago

lmm 8y ago

> If that is true, then your researchers are effectively managers here. The real workers are lab techs, programmers etc. That's often how it works these days. Means the university can keep most of the workers on lower pay scales and avoid having to grant them tenure.

roel_v 8y ago

"If that is true, then your researchers are effectively managers here. The real workers are lab techs, programmers etc." Well yeah. Professors are like business unit leaders/managers, acquiring funding for research and setting the main outline of what to do. Then the others (usually, although not always, designated 'administrative staff', or grad students/post docs) execute the work. I'm not sure I would call them 'real workers', that implies that others (i.e., managers) don't do 'real work'. I mean I understand what you say - you mean 'real work' as 'producing something', but 'creating the circumstances in which others can produce something' is also work.

kamaal 8y ago
>>you mean 'real work' as 'producing something', but 'creating the circumstances in which others can produce something' is also work. The thing is its always easy to see who 'produces something'. When you start talking about 'creating the circumstances', you trigger of a chain of helpers, who help helpers, who ... and so on. Until you arrive at a point where there is a whole hierarchy of people sitting just to approve things, keep records and pass memos.
- roel_v 8y ago
  Well yeah, sure. That's how it works when scaling any organization. I'm not sure what I'm arguing here; I know for a fact that most universities have too much admin staff, but it's not like they all sit around all day writing reports to each other (at least not most of them). Students nowadays expect a mental health program, housing- and career advisers, clubs and events, they want to see the school in the newspapers, they want to be offered international exchanges and internships. All very understandable, but someone needs to make all that happen. Couple that with the fact that universities cannot be 'efficient' in the sense that they get as much done as possible for as little money as possible (because that's just not in the DNA of universities), and you get the current situation.

talltimtom 8y ago

It’s not about “who’s doing the real work” it’s a question of what type of work you are doing. A facilities administrator (fancy title for handyman) will have a much more hands-on part in bringing in new research equipment and setting it up. But it’s still the research staff who ordered it and will plan the experiments that get published in nature.