4 ms·

I think you are somewhat correct with your brainstorming scenario, but Germany was still plenty innovative in the last century. Software technologies like MP3

by qznc 8y ago

I think you are somewhat correct with your brainstorming scenario, but Germany was still plenty innovative in the last century. Software technologies like MP3 came out of Germany. Companies like SAP and Hetzner are successful and german. Berlin has a healthy startup scene. Green technologies and automotive is dominated by Germany. Overall I think Germany has plenty of risk taking engineers but the capital is more risk averse than in the US. Capital includes angel investors and pension funds and everything in between.

ur-whale 8y ago
>Software technologies like MP3 came out of Germany. With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. >Companies like SAP At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I have a very hard time putting SAP and innovation in the same sentence. They're basically the Oracle of Germany. > Green technologies and automotive is dominated by Germany. I do not know enough about green tech to comment, but for automotive, I strongly disagree: incremental improvement, yes. Innovation? certainly not. Case in point: how many German company dominate in self-driving cars? All the German car makers are buying the tech. from elsewhere. As a matter of fact, thanks for picking that example: where did Sebastian Thrun have to go in order for his ideas to take flight? Why did he not choose to do his thing in Germany? >Overall I think Germany has plenty of risk taking engineers but the capital is more risk averse than in the US. Capital includes angel investors and pension funds and everything in between. You are correct that Venture cap in Western Europe is risk averse. All they invest in is European versions of stuff that's already been proven successful in the US. But what you're not seeing is that the aversion to risk from European VC is a symptom of a larger/deeper problem: statistically speaking, there is no appetite for risk and innovation in Europe. VC risk-averseness is just one facet of that. And why should there be? Given the regulatory and tax burden you're going to be subjected to when you try to do anything over there, why even effing try?
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  > With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. Different business models are different, and things tend to get ugly when you find a way to print money. I'll take the "restrictive licensing/patents" model over the Google/Facebook "private sector surveillance" model any day of the week... > At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I have a very hard time putting SAP and innovation in the same sentence. They're basically the Oracle of Germany. I think IBM might be a better comparison. Certainly the scale of the past century, both SAP and IBM did plenty of innovation.
- whyever 8y ago
  > With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. I feel like you are moving goal posts. Also, do you think IP in the US software industry is any better?
  - ur-whale 8y ago
    No, I am not moving the goal posts. Patents, while they were invented to promote it, end up being a major drag on innovation, which bears to my point: innovating in Europe is a major PITA. >Also, do you think IP in the US software industry is any better The way IP is managed in the US is terrible, granted. But I would say that these days, and specifically for software, things are way better than they used to - say - in the 80's and 90's. A number of tech. companies are starting to recognize that sharing IP is actually making them more money in the long run and are actually publishing a lot of what they invent. For example, and while I am no fan of Google, they tend to open source a ton of non-obvious stuff (e.g. the recently discussed s2 library). On the flipside, and as an experiment: if you work in a German tech. company, try and ask their legal dept how they'd feel about open-sourcing some of their stack. See what they say.
    - qznc 8y ago
      How much a tech company open sources their stuff depends much more on their industry sector. The web industry makes a lot Open Source. The embedded industry does not. Do General Motors, Boeing, or Tesla open source a lot? My employer, Bosch, does open source a few things. For example: http://www.amalthea-project.org/ http://www.amalthea-project.org/
- adrianN 8y ago
  All car makers (not only the German ones) buy their tech from Bosch, another German company.
  - ur-whale 8y ago
    I'm talking about self-driving tech. Does Bosch makes that?
    - adrianN 8y ago
      I personally know a couple of PhDs who worked at Bosch on self driving tech.
    - qznc 8y ago
      Yes: https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/highlights/automated-mobility/ https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/highlights/autom... Working there. Doing that.
      - qznc 8y ago
        Accidentally, I just found this: Bosch had a self-driving van prototype in 1983. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTnBiTIvGqY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTnBiTIvGqY

by qznc 8y ago

ur-whale 8y ago

>Software technologies like MP3 came out of Germany. With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. >Companies like SAP At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I have a very hard time putting SAP and innovation in the same sentence. They're basically the Oracle of Germany. > Green technologies and automotive is dominated by Germany. I do not know enough about green tech to comment, but for automotive, I strongly disagree: incremental improvement, yes. Innovation? certainly not. Case in point: how many German company dominate in self-driving cars? All the German car makers are buying the tech. from elsewhere. As a matter of fact, thanks for picking that example: where did Sebastian Thrun have to go in order for his ideas to take flight? Why did he not choose to do his thing in Germany? >Overall I think Germany has plenty of risk taking engineers but the capital is more risk averse than in the US. Capital includes angel investors and pension funds and everything in between. You are correct that Venture cap in Western Europe is risk averse. All they invest in is European versions of stuff that's already been proven successful in the US. But what you're not seeing is that the aversion to risk from European VC is a symptom of a larger/deeper problem: statistically speaking, there is no appetite for risk and innovation in Europe. VC risk-averseness is just one facet of that. And why should there be? Given the regulatory and tax burden you're going to be subjected to when you try to do anything over there, why even effing try?

throwawayjava 8y ago
> With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. Different business models are different, and things tend to get ugly when you find a way to print money. I'll take the "restrictive licensing/patents" model over the Google/Facebook "private sector surveillance" model any day of the week... > At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I have a very hard time putting SAP and innovation in the same sentence. They're basically the Oracle of Germany. I think IBM might be a better comparison. Certainly the scale of the past century, both SAP and IBM did plenty of innovation.
whyever 8y ago
> With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. I feel like you are moving goal posts. Also, do you think IP in the US software industry is any better?
- ur-whale 8y ago
  No, I am not moving the goal posts. Patents, while they were invented to promote it, end up being a major drag on innovation, which bears to my point: innovating in Europe is a major PITA. >Also, do you think IP in the US software industry is any better The way IP is managed in the US is terrible, granted. But I would say that these days, and specifically for software, things are way better than they used to - say - in the 80's and 90's. A number of tech. companies are starting to recognize that sharing IP is actually making them more money in the long run and are actually publishing a lot of what they invent. For example, and while I am no fan of Google, they tend to open source a ton of non-obvious stuff (e.g. the recently discussed s2 library). On the flipside, and as an experiment: if you work in a German tech. company, try and ask their legal dept how they'd feel about open-sourcing some of their stack. See what they say.
  - qznc 8y ago
    How much a tech company open sources their stuff depends much more on their industry sector. The web industry makes a lot Open Source. The embedded industry does not. Do General Motors, Boeing, or Tesla open source a lot? My employer, Bosch, does open source a few things. For example: http://www.amalthea-project.org/ http://www.amalthea-project.org/
adrianN 8y ago
All car makers (not only the German ones) buy their tech from Bosch, another German company.
- ur-whale 8y ago
  I'm talking about self-driving tech. Does Bosch makes that?
  - adrianN 8y ago
    I personally know a couple of PhDs who worked at Bosch on self driving tech.
  - qznc 8y ago
    Yes: https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/highlights/automated-mobility/ https://www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com/en/highlights/autom... Working there. Doing that.
    - qznc 8y ago
      Accidentally, I just found this: Bosch had a self-driving van prototype in 1983. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTnBiTIvGqY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTnBiTIvGqY