6 ms·

"we have never had as much free time as now where we dont need to worry about food" We actually have less free time compared to hunter-gatherers. http://rewild

"we have never had as much free time as now where we dont need to worry about food" We actually have less free time compared to hunter-gatherers. http://rewild.info/in-depth/leisure.html http://rewild.info/in-depth/leisure.html

feverfew 8y ago
But what was there to do with this free time?
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  Rest. Socialize. Make babies. Goof off, make others laugh. I'm gonna guess that some folks had games, and children likely invented them.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    You forgot die in pain because your food was contaminated or your water has bacteria. Can we stop with the happy savages myth for a second?
    - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
      This is a false dichotomy.
    - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
      People do that in the modern world as well. Just because that stuff was true doesn't mean the rest is false. I'm definitely not someone that wants to go back to the old times either.
    - autocorr 8y ago
      With regards to "what was there for them to do?", the GP responded with the most authentically human things. Just like money can't buy happiness, technology can't buy you fulfillment and meaning, even if both can make you more comfortable.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  There is no way to say this without sounding smug, but I'm reminded of talking with new roommates in San Jose about 10 years ago * them: "we all split the tv bill, it's $45 a person" * me: (gasping at a $220 per month tv bill) I actually don't watch tv * them: (in disbelief) but what do you do after work??? Nowadays this would probably be less weird since we have more streaming options but this whole idea that time is an expanse to be filled as trivially as possible is concerning. What do you do with your unfree time? Is it more purposeful than what you do with time you have at your disposal?
  - ksdale 8y ago
    Sort of tangential, but I have a similar thought whenever someone says they don't want to have kids because they don't want to "give up their freedom." No one bats an eye at the idea of spending 60 hours a week between work and commuting. A lot of young people don't even particularly care that much where they work, as long as the pay is ok, as opposed to say, starting their own business and making less money but having far fewer demands on their time. Obviously people have got to make a living and it's not my place to say when people should have kids, but I don't think a lot of people have a very clear idea of what freedom means.
    - CalRobert 8y ago
      I just had a kid, and I understand this idea completely. I like being a parent but among other things, it means that major life decisions are MUCH more constrained. Want to live somewhere else? Hope the schools are decent. Want to live in the city? Hope you can afford a bigger flat. Want to go on a holiday? Hope you're ok with a pissed off kid (and neighbours) on a flight, or lots of time spent entertaining them on a train, etc. Also your choice of destination will be different. It works for bigger decisions too. It's harder to take huge risks (start a company, etc) when a kid is counting on you. Also, we've considered changing country someday and now it feels like there's this weird deadline where it's not so bad if she's 2,3, or 4 when we do it but hugely disruptive if she's 10 or 12. We wouldn't have had those concerns before. And time. My god, it's so time consuming. All of my side coding projects, including ones I've thought might turn in to a business, have ground to an utter and complete halt. As well they should - she's more important, but it's still frustrating. Life is pretty much {"bare necessities to keep a career going", "child care", "nowhere near enough sleep"} - though I hear this gets easier as they get older.
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  The idea that free time should be filled with entertainment rather than intellectual activities and social engagement is surprisingly modern. Even only 50 years ago, in many cultures, people were spending more time reading, writing songs and playing instruments, engaging in politics, doing home DiY, gardening, improvisational theater.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    I think the key difference is time spent making vs consuming. I don't know what the ideal ratio is between the two but think we've veered to too much consumption. The replacement of pc's with phones worries me for this reason.
  - badpun 8y ago
    Can you give example of such cultures? My impression was always that it was contrary to what you wrote. For example, tourism (taking a train to a neigboring city just for fun) was invented in XIX century England to show common folks that there's something other than drinking that they can fill their free time with.
- grasshopperpurp 8y ago
  What do people do when they go camping or hiking? What do people do when they go to the beach? What do people do when they go to a park? What do people do when they have dinner with their family and friends? If you can't sit still and enjoy yourself just being, you will be in constant pain, and any break in that pain is only momentary relief. Most people pile distractions on top of distractions to shield themselves from their misery.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
ekianjo 8y ago
Thats pre civilization. Does it count?
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  Yes, it's human history
  - ken 8y ago
    Unless it was written down, it's human pre-history.
    - wu-ikkyu 8y ago
      And yet human beings still existed before developing written language, so the pertinent statement is still baseless: >As human beings we have never had as much free time as now
gleech 8y ago
This "original affluent society" hypothesis is much-promoted but much of it just isn't true. Lee's numbers explicitly counted only the initial foraging of the mongongo nuts, i.e. none of the food processing, firewood gathering or tool maintenance. After adjusting for these, the average !Kung work week is at least 50 hours and probably more. See: http://www.rachellaudan.com/2016/01/was-the-agricultural-revolution-a-terrible-mistake.html http://www.rachellaudan.com/2016/01/was-the-agricultural-rev...
- wott 8y ago
  I don't understand the base of this debunk. Nowadays, food 'collecting', food processing, DIY (taking care of tools) are not counted into working time but come extra and are taken from 'free' time. And they amount to 1, perhaps 2, working day equivalent per week.
  - gleech 8y ago
    Sure: "40 hours a week" for moderns is also an underestimate.* But the figure everyone goes around repeating about hunter-gatherers is a more dramatic underestimate. The accurate !Kung estimate is 48-56 hours spent on these things: so we seem to be about the same, but with massively improved quality, cost, and nutrition for us. The debunking applies to the claim that they had more leisure than us. Lee says: "work week... of 2.4 days per adult... [the bushmen] appeared to enjoy more leisure time than the members of many agricultural and industrial societies." * Industrialised-world cooking time per week seems to be about 6 hours. https://www.statista.com/statistics/420719/time-spent-cooking-per-week-among-consumers-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/420719/time-spent-cookin... Difficult to find average shopping time, but call it 5-7 hours a week. https://www.statista.com/statistics/521924/time-spent-household-shopping-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/521924/time-spent-househ...

feverfew 8y ago

But what was there to do with this free time?

Broken_Hippo 8y ago
Rest. Socialize. Make babies. Goof off, make others laugh. I'm gonna guess that some folks had games, and children likely invented them.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  You forgot die in pain because your food was contaminated or your water has bacteria. Can we stop with the happy savages myth for a second?
  - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
    This is a false dichotomy.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    People do that in the modern world as well. Just because that stuff was true doesn't mean the rest is false. I'm definitely not someone that wants to go back to the old times either.
  - autocorr 8y ago
    With regards to "what was there for them to do?", the GP responded with the most authentically human things. Just like money can't buy happiness, technology can't buy you fulfillment and meaning, even if both can make you more comfortable.
CalRobert 8y ago
There is no way to say this without sounding smug, but I'm reminded of talking with new roommates in San Jose about 10 years ago * them: "we all split the tv bill, it's $45 a person" * me: (gasping at a $220 per month tv bill) I actually don't watch tv * them: (in disbelief) but what do you do after work??? Nowadays this would probably be less weird since we have more streaming options but this whole idea that time is an expanse to be filled as trivially as possible is concerning. What do you do with your unfree time? Is it more purposeful than what you do with time you have at your disposal?
- ksdale 8y ago
  Sort of tangential, but I have a similar thought whenever someone says they don't want to have kids because they don't want to "give up their freedom." No one bats an eye at the idea of spending 60 hours a week between work and commuting. A lot of young people don't even particularly care that much where they work, as long as the pay is ok, as opposed to say, starting their own business and making less money but having far fewer demands on their time. Obviously people have got to make a living and it's not my place to say when people should have kids, but I don't think a lot of people have a very clear idea of what freedom means.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    I just had a kid, and I understand this idea completely. I like being a parent but among other things, it means that major life decisions are MUCH more constrained. Want to live somewhere else? Hope the schools are decent. Want to live in the city? Hope you can afford a bigger flat. Want to go on a holiday? Hope you're ok with a pissed off kid (and neighbours) on a flight, or lots of time spent entertaining them on a train, etc. Also your choice of destination will be different. It works for bigger decisions too. It's harder to take huge risks (start a company, etc) when a kid is counting on you. Also, we've considered changing country someday and now it feels like there's this weird deadline where it's not so bad if she's 2,3, or 4 when we do it but hugely disruptive if she's 10 or 12. We wouldn't have had those concerns before. And time. My god, it's so time consuming. All of my side coding projects, including ones I've thought might turn in to a business, have ground to an utter and complete halt. As well they should - she's more important, but it's still frustrating. Life is pretty much {"bare necessities to keep a career going", "child care", "nowhere near enough sleep"} - though I hear this gets easier as they get older.
eeZah7Ux 8y ago
The idea that free time should be filled with entertainment rather than intellectual activities and social engagement is surprisingly modern. Even only 50 years ago, in many cultures, people were spending more time reading, writing songs and playing instruments, engaging in politics, doing home DiY, gardening, improvisational theater.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  I think the key difference is time spent making vs consuming. I don't know what the ideal ratio is between the two but think we've veered to too much consumption. The replacement of pc's with phones worries me for this reason.
- badpun 8y ago
  Can you give example of such cultures? My impression was always that it was contrary to what you wrote. For example, tourism (taking a train to a neigboring city just for fun) was invented in XIX century England to show common folks that there's something other than drinking that they can fill their free time with.
grasshopperpurp 8y ago
What do people do when they go camping or hiking? What do people do when they go to the beach? What do people do when they go to a park? What do people do when they have dinner with their family and friends? If you can't sit still and enjoy yourself just being, you will be in constant pain, and any break in that pain is only momentary relief. Most people pile distractions on top of distractions to shield themselves from their misery.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

ekianjo 8y ago

Thats pre civilization. Does it count?

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
Yes, it's human history
- ken 8y ago
  Unless it was written down, it's human pre-history.
  - wu-ikkyu 8y ago
    And yet human beings still existed before developing written language, so the pertinent statement is still baseless: >As human beings we have never had as much free time as now

gleech 8y ago

This "original affluent society" hypothesis is much-promoted but much of it just isn't true. Lee's numbers explicitly counted only the initial foraging of the mongongo nuts, i.e. none of the food processing, firewood gathering or tool maintenance. After adjusting for these, the average !Kung work week is at least 50 hours and probably more. See: http://www.rachellaudan.com/2016/01/was-the-agricultural-revolution-a-terrible-mistake.html http://www.rachellaudan.com/2016/01/was-the-agricultural-rev...

wott 8y ago
I don't understand the base of this debunk. Nowadays, food 'collecting', food processing, DIY (taking care of tools) are not counted into working time but come extra and are taken from 'free' time. And they amount to 1, perhaps 2, working day equivalent per week.
- gleech 8y ago
  Sure: "40 hours a week" for moderns is also an underestimate.* But the figure everyone goes around repeating about hunter-gatherers is a more dramatic underestimate. The accurate !Kung estimate is 48-56 hours spent on these things: so we seem to be about the same, but with massively improved quality, cost, and nutrition for us. The debunking applies to the claim that they had more leisure than us. Lee says: "work week... of 2.4 days per adult... [the bushmen] appeared to enjoy more leisure time than the members of many agricultural and industrial societies." * Industrialised-world cooking time per week seems to be about 6 hours. https://www.statista.com/statistics/420719/time-spent-cooking-per-week-among-consumers-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/420719/time-spent-cookin... Difficult to find average shopping time, but call it 5-7 hours a week. https://www.statista.com/statistics/521924/time-spent-household-shopping-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/521924/time-spent-househ...