4 ms·

They don't have to pay well compared to the US. They have to pay well compared to rest of Europe / Germany.

skrebbel 8y ago
I know more European devs who live and work in the Bay Area than I know Americans who live and work in the Netherlands. And I'm in the Netherlands! There's clearly more people being drawn to SV than away from it. I bet salary is a major component. I fully agree with the GP. European tech bigco's need to get their shit together and pay competitively.
- archi42 8y ago
  As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. Maybe the pay offsets that somewhat, but if I have to be honest: The US don't really strike me as that attractive once I consider the whole package (of course SV is probably nice to live/work). But universities usually pay worse than the local industry anyway, so yeah, if they want the top people, they should start to pay (local) top salaries. Instead, as a researcher you might find yourself living from 6 month contract to 6 month contract.
  - chrisper 8y ago
    I lived in the US for 5 years and came back to Europe. Money isn't everything.
  - ur-whale 8y ago
    > As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. You're proving his point: all the risk-averse folks stay in Germany. The rest are in the bay area.
    - kazen44 8y ago
      this is a very poor point. People who want to take risks prefer to take additional risks which can be prevented by cooperating with other people through a social security system? Also, your health is not a calculated risk. Having a poor health (sometimes) just happens, even if your lifestyle is healthy. This also ignores the massive social problems that are taken for granted in the US because of its non existant healthcare system for the poor.
      - ur-whale 8y ago
        People who like to take risks very rarely enjoy the kind of straight-jacket social environment you find in Western European societies. Therefore, they leave for greener pastures. Government mandated social security is an extremely inefficient way of managing health care. As an added evil it puts a giant drag on how fast companies can move. But in Europe, try to dare to even mention the idea that centralized government mandated social security is terrible and you're immediately ignored because people think you're an immoral person. And social metrics be damned. Just another example of Europeans living withing the confines of carefully built and maintained mental prisons.
        ginko 8y ago
        >Government mandated social security is an extremely inefficient way of managing health care. Yeah, just look how efficient the US healthcare system is: https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/total-spending-per-capita.png https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/tot...
    - archi42 8y ago
      I'm not exactly risk-averse - but thomas112 correctly deduced that I don't want to live in a society that basically says "f..k the poor". Also plenty of people with whom I studied are taking financial and career risks instead of going the "9 to 5 family life and happily ever after" route while staying in Europe. If you run a successful company here you can still make a lot of money ;-)
  - thomas11 8y ago
    I'm a German engineer in the US. The thing with these stories is that they won't happen to you. If you're employed by a tech company you have great health insurance. Of course, it still sucks that it can happen to someone at all and you might not want to live in such a society. That's a separate issue. Speaking of SV, I think the cost of living and the social problems there have made it increasingly unattractive. Seattle is nice.
    - chrisper 8y ago
      >The thing with these stories is that they won't happen to you. > If you're employed by a tech company you have great health insurance. So it will happen to you if you are laid off and happen to become sick after that?
      - oh_sigh 8y ago
        On your layoff papers you check the "sign up for COBRA insurance" box and go on with your life
- chrisper 8y ago
  Yes, but is enough for them to compete with people who want to stay here.

I know more European devs who live and work in the Bay Area than I know Americans who live and work in the Netherlands. And I'm in the Netherlands! There's clearly more people being drawn to SV than away from it. I bet salary is a major component. I fully agree with the GP. European tech bigco's need to get their shit together and pay competitively.

archi42 8y ago
As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. Maybe the pay offsets that somewhat, but if I have to be honest: The US don't really strike me as that attractive once I consider the whole package (of course SV is probably nice to live/work). But universities usually pay worse than the local industry anyway, so yeah, if they want the top people, they should start to pay (local) top salaries. Instead, as a researcher you might find yourself living from 6 month contract to 6 month contract.
- chrisper 8y ago
  I lived in the US for 5 years and came back to Europe. Money isn't everything.
- ur-whale 8y ago
  > As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. You're proving his point: all the risk-averse folks stay in Germany. The rest are in the bay area.
  - kazen44 8y ago
    this is a very poor point. People who want to take risks prefer to take additional risks which can be prevented by cooperating with other people through a social security system? Also, your health is not a calculated risk. Having a poor health (sometimes) just happens, even if your lifestyle is healthy. This also ignores the massive social problems that are taken for granted in the US because of its non existant healthcare system for the poor.
    - ur-whale 8y ago
      People who like to take risks very rarely enjoy the kind of straight-jacket social environment you find in Western European societies. Therefore, they leave for greener pastures. Government mandated social security is an extremely inefficient way of managing health care. As an added evil it puts a giant drag on how fast companies can move. But in Europe, try to dare to even mention the idea that centralized government mandated social security is terrible and you're immediately ignored because people think you're an immoral person. And social metrics be damned. Just another example of Europeans living withing the confines of carefully built and maintained mental prisons.
      - ginko 8y ago
        >Government mandated social security is an extremely inefficient way of managing health care. Yeah, just look how efficient the US healthcare system is: https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/total-spending-per-capita.png https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/tot...
  - archi42 8y ago
    I'm not exactly risk-averse - but thomas112 correctly deduced that I don't want to live in a society that basically says "f..k the poor". Also plenty of people with whom I studied are taking financial and career risks instead of going the "9 to 5 family life and happily ever after" route while staying in Europe. If you run a successful company here you can still make a lot of money ;-)
- thomas11 8y ago
  I'm a German engineer in the US. The thing with these stories is that they won't happen to you. If you're employed by a tech company you have great health insurance. Of course, it still sucks that it can happen to someone at all and you might not want to live in such a society. That's a separate issue. Speaking of SV, I think the cost of living and the social problems there have made it increasingly unattractive. Seattle is nice.
  - chrisper 8y ago
    >The thing with these stories is that they won't happen to you. > If you're employed by a tech company you have great health insurance. So it will happen to you if you are laid off and happen to become sick after that?
    - oh_sigh 8y ago
      On your layoff papers you check the "sign up for COBRA insurance" box and go on with your life
chrisper 8y ago
Yes, but is enough for them to compete with people who want to stay here.