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True that I generalized too much. But, I did so for brevity of my point. Comparing EU salaries with US is not apples to apples. Because EU has different cost of

True that I generalized too much. But, I did so for brevity of my point. Comparing EU salaries with US is not apples to apples. Because EU has different cost of living regions & benefits vs similar differences in US. However, as a personal anecdote from someone who moved from SouthEast USA(Raleigh, NC) which I consider as neither too high end like Bay Area nor too low like somewhere in Montana to Denmark, which is rather higher cost example within Europe, I see a big difference in the money I can retain every month after my expenses. Admittedly, I did not count healthcare costs because it was covered almost entirely by my employer in the US. Here, the Danish government does from my taxes.. If I were a young new graduate tech engineer with aspirations of being among the best, and getting paid well, from anywhere in Europe, it seems almost 90% logical to look at moving to US. Cultural, political and family reasons to stay in Europe is a different story. I have a friend in DK, who bluntly said that "he will not consider the US in the argument because of Trump, and the society that would elect an idiot like him". People have different priorities at the end of the day. But, money wise, it is still the US of A...

ionised 8y ago
I've considered moving to the US before and have had a couple of offers in the last few years. There lots of reasons I wouldn't want to live in the US that the increased Valley-area pay wouldn't make up for for me, personally.
- joelbluminator 8y ago
  How are you looking for jobs in the U.S ? I find the whole process daunting (especially not knowing if you win some visa lottery, and the fact my wife won't be able to work there).
pjmlp 8y ago
When I was an young new graduate I did consider moving into US, even got some interviews, thankfully I decided to stay in Europe. There is no amount of money that would cover what I would be loosing in vacations, job safety, unions that actually work on IT, paternity leave, healthcare, .... Plus I got to become fluent in 6 languages, and basic knowledge in a few others.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  You, and others, gave additional reasons why the comparison goes moot.
- reacharavindh 8y ago
  You're the reason why I said "almost" :-) I don't think the majority thinks this way when they first build their career and look for places.. I'm heavily inspired by your learning 6 languages! I'm learning Danish as my first foreign language as an adult, and damn is it a struggle...
joelbluminator 8y ago
The option to move to the U.S is given only to a selected few who somehow got relocated by their employer or won a visa lottery. And even if everything went fine, if you are married your spouse probably won't be able to work in the U.S. There's plenty of talent in Europe who wouldn't even consider the US simply because of the hellish bureaucracy. So I really doubt that the best and brightest all 100% flock to the U.S from Europe.
Fnoord 8y ago
In the USA, if you do have a specialisation you can profit from then you're middle class pronto but if something happens with you, if you get unemployed or drama in your life you are toast. EU is less risk/less reward, and that contradicts a startup culture at its core which is high risk/high reward. However that doesn't mean EU has no risk/reward or effort/reward; it has. That friend from DK likely has rather opposite values of Trump's and is afraid for a society where approx 50% of the people would vote for Trump. But if you look into it, and speak to Trump voters, that's when you start to develop sympathy and empathy for their background, stories, and reasoning. Its important to listen to people, and try to understand them. We can learn so much from that, but it requires patience, time/effort, and getting out of your bubble. I've seen a very good TV series on this subject [1] by an American-born American-Dutch (Jewish, Czech) presentator Eva Jinek but it is unfortunately with Dutch voiceover/subs. I come up today with another reason (healthcare example) of why I would prefer EU over US [2]. Examples like these I stumble upon every once in a while, and they make the comparison more and more difficult; not easier. Because income is tangible, but these examples are not. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Verenigde_Staten_van_Eva https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Verenigde_Staten_van_Eva [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17877651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17877651
pedroaraujo 8y ago
I think you are undervaluing a lot the benefits of the European culture [1]. It's just not health care, it's also the safety of not being spontaneously fired, the work-life balance, the vacation time, the paternity leave, and so on. [1] I know that the mileage can vary from country to country.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > It's just not health care, it's also the safety of not being spontaneously fired, the work-life balance, the vacation time, the paternity leave, and so on. These are all things you can buy in the U.S, it's mostly just that working people choose money over any of those things when they figure out what they cost. In much of Europe, the actual cost of these things is not visible to people with an "employee" mindset. When presented an honest bargain between these fringe benefits and their real cash value, the average American believes the federal reserve notes are worth more.
- reacharavindh 8y ago
  I didn't mean to undervalue the benefits. I need to communicate better. I only intended to state a part of the argument that US generally pays substantially more than Europe. There are many (including myself) that choose to stay in Europe in-spite of it, valuing other benefits such as (better healthcare, work-life balance, education, involved society, gun control etc). It still does not change the fact that US pays better, and that it would be better for Europe to do so as well if they want to attract top Engineers aways from US...

ionised 8y ago

I've considered moving to the US before and have had a couple of offers in the last few years. There lots of reasons I wouldn't want to live in the US that the increased Valley-area pay wouldn't make up for for me, personally.

joelbluminator 8y ago
How are you looking for jobs in the U.S ? I find the whole process daunting (especially not knowing if you win some visa lottery, and the fact my wife won't be able to work there).

pjmlp 8y ago

When I was an young new graduate I did consider moving into US, even got some interviews, thankfully I decided to stay in Europe. There is no amount of money that would cover what I would be loosing in vacations, job safety, unions that actually work on IT, paternity leave, healthcare, .... Plus I got to become fluent in 6 languages, and basic knowledge in a few others.

Fnoord 8y ago
You, and others, gave additional reasons why the comparison goes moot.
reacharavindh 8y ago
You're the reason why I said "almost" :-) I don't think the majority thinks this way when they first build their career and look for places.. I'm heavily inspired by your learning 6 languages! I'm learning Danish as my first foreign language as an adult, and damn is it a struggle...

joelbluminator 8y ago

The option to move to the U.S is given only to a selected few who somehow got relocated by their employer or won a visa lottery. And even if everything went fine, if you are married your spouse probably won't be able to work in the U.S. There's plenty of talent in Europe who wouldn't even consider the US simply because of the hellish bureaucracy. So I really doubt that the best and brightest all 100% flock to the U.S from Europe.

Fnoord 8y ago

In the USA, if you do have a specialisation you can profit from then you're middle class pronto but if something happens with you, if you get unemployed or drama in your life you are toast. EU is less risk/less reward, and that contradicts a startup culture at its core which is high risk/high reward. However that doesn't mean EU has no risk/reward or effort/reward; it has. That friend from DK likely has rather opposite values of Trump's and is afraid for a society where approx 50% of the people would vote for Trump. But if you look into it, and speak to Trump voters, that's when you start to develop sympathy and empathy for their background, stories, and reasoning. Its important to listen to people, and try to understand them. We can learn so much from that, but it requires patience, time/effort, and getting out of your bubble. I've seen a very good TV series on this subject [1] by an American-born American-Dutch (Jewish, Czech) presentator Eva Jinek but it is unfortunately with Dutch voiceover/subs. I come up today with another reason (healthcare example) of why I would prefer EU over US [2]. Examples like these I stumble upon every once in a while, and they make the comparison more and more difficult; not easier. Because income is tangible, but these examples are not. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Verenigde_Staten_van_Eva https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Verenigde_Staten_van_Eva [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17877651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17877651

pedroaraujo 8y ago

I think you are undervaluing a lot the benefits of the European culture [1]. It's just not health care, it's also the safety of not being spontaneously fired, the work-life balance, the vacation time, the paternity leave, and so on. [1] I know that the mileage can vary from country to country.

microcolonel 8y ago
> It's just not health care, it's also the safety of not being spontaneously fired, the work-life balance, the vacation time, the paternity leave, and so on. These are all things you can buy in the U.S, it's mostly just that working people choose money over any of those things when they figure out what they cost. In much of Europe, the actual cost of these things is not visible to people with an "employee" mindset. When presented an honest bargain between these fringe benefits and their real cash value, the average American believes the federal reserve notes are worth more.
reacharavindh 8y ago
I didn't mean to undervalue the benefits. I need to communicate better. I only intended to state a part of the argument that US generally pays substantially more than Europe. There are many (including myself) that choose to stay in Europe in-spite of it, valuing other benefits such as (better healthcare, work-life balance, education, involved society, gun control etc). It still does not change the fact that US pays better, and that it would be better for Europe to do so as well if they want to attract top Engineers aways from US...