8 ms·

I used to work in the US as a perf engineer, and now live in Europe(Denmark). I made a conscious choice to live here despite a drastic cut in pay. Europe just d

I used to work in the US as a perf engineer, and now live in Europe(Denmark). I made a conscious choice to live here despite a drastic cut in pay. Europe just does not pay anywhere near what US does. Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US. Want top notch Cyber Security in Germany? Start by paying well for the engineers... then may be they want to stay.

simongray 8y ago
> Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US. I think that the focus on take-home salary is very American and it doesn't necessarily transfer to other cultures. Europeans generally prefer getting home earlier from work, taking longer holidays, having maternity/paternity leave, and so on. Money is one thing, but as long as you make enough, the other things become more important. If you live in Denmark surely you have noticed this, even in the tech sector.
- mseidl 8y ago
  I'm a German who had a green card in the USA. I gave it up and moved back home to Germany. I value the European lifestyle over the American. I make less but I'm happier with being treated well.
  - bitL 8y ago
    I know some Eastern Europeans that told me they were treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV
    - fasja9 8y ago
      That's a cultural thing. German-speaking countries are flooded with slavs so they are not treated so well.
      - naibafo 8y ago
        No that's an asshole/racist thing.
      - Rinzler89 8y ago
        It'a cultural thing to judge pople based on their origin and/or nationality?
    - grecy 8y ago
      > treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV I think the discussion is about society in general (healthcare, education, safety, work hours, leave from work, etc. ), not about how a person is treated in their individual workplace.
      - yostrovs 8y ago
        People make choices based on multiple aspects, not just the political aspects you'd like to focus on. Europeans tend to be nationalist and if you're from the "wrong" nation you feel that. In America you won't be treated with more respect if you're from Denmark and not Poland. So that's an aspect.
        joelbluminator 8y ago
        Such broad generalizations, its quite lacking in awareness for you to be from a country where Trump is president and still be condescending to Europeans about their nationalism/racism.
        oh_sigh 8y ago
        Yup, the very fabric of America changed on that awful awful day in November.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - reacharavindh 8y ago
    I did not communicate clear enough. I'm NOT saying life in the US is abstractly better than Europe. It is a personal choice, and I quite decided otherwise(moving to Europe from the US). It still does not change the fact that Europe generally pays less than US, and that it would be better for European companies to pay better to attract /retain top talent from the US.
    - joelbluminator 8y ago
      You are saying that USA will always be perceived as a superior place to live because of the better pay; the guy is saying that it's not always true because some people value other things (family time, housing affordability, social security network etc), so some talent will prefer to remain/move to europe/canada etc. While I generally tend to agree with you more (unfortunately people go for the money), he has a good point. The U.S isn't for everyone.
    - joelbluminator 8y ago
      But I do agree the pay should rise about 20% . by "should" I mean a lot of companies in Germany or Netherlands(where I'm currently at) will lose employees to Dublin/London where salaries are much higher.
- throwawaymanbot 8y ago
  We pretty much all agree after the age of 30, Europe is the place to be! Nothing compares to it, especially the financial and health security.
rurban 8y ago
Also change politics. The BND has now pretty much the same damaging image as the CIA, as the last resort for the old fascists, actively supporting Nazis and treating non-violent antifascists (ie democrats) as potential violent terrorists. Nobody wants to work in such an environment, esp. under Seehofer. The cited green party member was completely right. See also Sascha Lobos comment https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/sascha-lobo-zu-den-krawallen-in-chemnitz-eine-zaesur-findet-nicht-statt-a-1225485-amp.html https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpoliti...
Fnoord 8y ago
This comparison is very complex. You cannot just compare European wages with US wages [1]. For one, the cost of living is going to depend on where you live. Which country, which city, which town. And you cannot just compare the costs. Each person has different values. Some prefer to live in a village, other in an apartment in a city. Some are cool with 1500 EUR rent a month, some find that ridiculous. Some can't stand the smog, others don't mind. If you live in a village the value of a car increases, while in a city the public transport system is invaluable. Each has their + and -, beyond just the cost of living, and how important these values are is also going to differ. On top of that you get healthcare in Europe, even if you end up sacked. You pay more tax in Europe, but this also gives you more social security. Then there's state pensions. In the USA the native language is English, and its settled on that. In Europe, this isn't the case (though it is in Amsterdam) with e.g. the stoic French and Germans. Not even the EUR is the main currency in whole of EU. [1] I suppose we'd need some kind of statistical analysis.
- reacharavindh 8y ago
  True that I generalized too much. But, I did so for brevity of my point. Comparing EU salaries with US is not apples to apples. Because EU has different cost of living regions & benefits vs similar differences in US. However, as a personal anecdote from someone who moved from SouthEast USA(Raleigh, NC) which I consider as neither too high end like Bay Area nor too low like somewhere in Montana to Denmark, which is rather higher cost example within Europe, I see a big difference in the money I can retain every month after my expenses. Admittedly, I did not count healthcare costs because it was covered almost entirely by my employer in the US. Here, the Danish government does from my taxes.. If I were a young new graduate tech engineer with aspirations of being among the best, and getting paid well, from anywhere in Europe, it seems almost 90% logical to look at moving to US. Cultural, political and family reasons to stay in Europe is a different story. I have a friend in DK, who bluntly said that "he will not consider the US in the argument because of Trump, and the society that would elect an idiot like him". People have different priorities at the end of the day. But, money wise, it is still the US of A...
  - ionised 8y ago
chrisper 8y ago
They don't have to pay well compared to the US. They have to pay well compared to rest of Europe / Germany.
- skrebbel 8y ago
  I know more European devs who live and work in the Bay Area than I know Americans who live and work in the Netherlands. And I'm in the Netherlands! There's clearly more people being drawn to SV than away from it. I bet salary is a major component. I fully agree with the GP. European tech bigco's need to get their shit together and pay competitively.
  - archi42 8y ago
    As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. Maybe the pay offsets that somewhat, but if I have to be honest: The US don't really strike me as that attractive once I consider the whole package (of course SV is probably nice to live/work). But universities usually pay worse than the local industry anyway, so yeah, if they want the top people, they should start to pay (local) top salaries. Instead, as a researcher you might find yourself living from 6 month contract to 6 month contract.
    - chrisper 8y ago
      I lived in the US for 5 years and came back to Europe. Money isn't everything.
    - ur-whale 8y ago
      > As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. You're proving his point: all the risk-averse folks stay in Germany. The rest are in the bay area.
      - kazen44 8y ago

simongray 8y ago

> Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US. I think that the focus on take-home salary is very American and it doesn't necessarily transfer to other cultures. Europeans generally prefer getting home earlier from work, taking longer holidays, having maternity/paternity leave, and so on. Money is one thing, but as long as you make enough, the other things become more important. If you live in Denmark surely you have noticed this, even in the tech sector.

mseidl 8y ago
I'm a German who had a green card in the USA. I gave it up and moved back home to Germany. I value the European lifestyle over the American. I make less but I'm happier with being treated well.
- bitL 8y ago
  I know some Eastern Europeans that told me they were treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV
  - fasja9 8y ago
    That's a cultural thing. German-speaking countries are flooded with slavs so they are not treated so well.
    - naibafo 8y ago
      No that's an asshole/racist thing.
    - Rinzler89 8y ago
      It'a cultural thing to judge pople based on their origin and/or nationality?
  - grecy 8y ago
    > treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV I think the discussion is about society in general (healthcare, education, safety, work hours, leave from work, etc. ), not about how a person is treated in their individual workplace.
    - yostrovs 8y ago
      People make choices based on multiple aspects, not just the political aspects you'd like to focus on. Europeans tend to be nationalist and if you're from the "wrong" nation you feel that. In America you won't be treated with more respect if you're from Denmark and not Poland. So that's an aspect.
      - joelbluminator 8y ago
        Such broad generalizations, its quite lacking in awareness for you to be from a country where Trump is president and still be condescending to Europeans about their nationalism/racism.
        oh_sigh 8y ago
        Yup, the very fabric of America changed on that awful awful day in November.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- reacharavindh 8y ago
  I did not communicate clear enough. I'm NOT saying life in the US is abstractly better than Europe. It is a personal choice, and I quite decided otherwise(moving to Europe from the US). It still does not change the fact that Europe generally pays less than US, and that it would be better for European companies to pay better to attract /retain top talent from the US.
  - joelbluminator 8y ago
    You are saying that USA will always be perceived as a superior place to live because of the better pay; the guy is saying that it's not always true because some people value other things (family time, housing affordability, social security network etc), so some talent will prefer to remain/move to europe/canada etc. While I generally tend to agree with you more (unfortunately people go for the money), he has a good point. The U.S isn't for everyone.
  - joelbluminator 8y ago
    But I do agree the pay should rise about 20% . by "should" I mean a lot of companies in Germany or Netherlands(where I'm currently at) will lose employees to Dublin/London where salaries are much higher.
throwawaymanbot 8y ago
We pretty much all agree after the age of 30, Europe is the place to be! Nothing compares to it, especially the financial and health security.

rurban 8y ago

Also change politics. The BND has now pretty much the same damaging image as the CIA, as the last resort for the old fascists, actively supporting Nazis and treating non-violent antifascists (ie democrats) as potential violent terrorists. Nobody wants to work in such an environment, esp. under Seehofer. The cited green party member was completely right. See also Sascha Lobos comment https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpolitik/sascha-lobo-zu-den-krawallen-in-chemnitz-eine-zaesur-findet-nicht-statt-a-1225485-amp.html https://www.google.de/amp/www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzpoliti...

Fnoord 8y ago

This comparison is very complex. You cannot just compare European wages with US wages [1]. For one, the cost of living is going to depend on where you live. Which country, which city, which town. And you cannot just compare the costs. Each person has different values. Some prefer to live in a village, other in an apartment in a city. Some are cool with 1500 EUR rent a month, some find that ridiculous. Some can't stand the smog, others don't mind. If you live in a village the value of a car increases, while in a city the public transport system is invaluable. Each has their + and -, beyond just the cost of living, and how important these values are is also going to differ. On top of that you get healthcare in Europe, even if you end up sacked. You pay more tax in Europe, but this also gives you more social security. Then there's state pensions. In the USA the native language is English, and its settled on that. In Europe, this isn't the case (though it is in Amsterdam) with e.g. the stoic French and Germans. Not even the EUR is the main currency in whole of EU. [1] I suppose we'd need some kind of statistical analysis.

reacharavindh 8y ago
True that I generalized too much. But, I did so for brevity of my point. Comparing EU salaries with US is not apples to apples. Because EU has different cost of living regions & benefits vs similar differences in US. However, as a personal anecdote from someone who moved from SouthEast USA(Raleigh, NC) which I consider as neither too high end like Bay Area nor too low like somewhere in Montana to Denmark, which is rather higher cost example within Europe, I see a big difference in the money I can retain every month after my expenses. Admittedly, I did not count healthcare costs because it was covered almost entirely by my employer in the US. Here, the Danish government does from my taxes.. If I were a young new graduate tech engineer with aspirations of being among the best, and getting paid well, from anywhere in Europe, it seems almost 90% logical to look at moving to US. Cultural, political and family reasons to stay in Europe is a different story. I have a friend in DK, who bluntly said that "he will not consider the US in the argument because of Trump, and the society that would elect an idiot like him". People have different priorities at the end of the day. But, money wise, it is still the US of A...
- ionised 8y ago

chrisper 8y ago

They don't have to pay well compared to the US. They have to pay well compared to rest of Europe / Germany.

skrebbel 8y ago
I know more European devs who live and work in the Bay Area than I know Americans who live and work in the Netherlands. And I'm in the Netherlands! There's clearly more people being drawn to SV than away from it. I bet salary is a major component. I fully agree with the GP. European tech bigco's need to get their shit together and pay competitively.
- archi42 8y ago
  As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. Maybe the pay offsets that somewhat, but if I have to be honest: The US don't really strike me as that attractive once I consider the whole package (of course SV is probably nice to live/work). But universities usually pay worse than the local industry anyway, so yeah, if they want the top people, they should start to pay (local) top salaries. Instead, as a researcher you might find yourself living from 6 month contract to 6 month contract.
  - chrisper 8y ago
    I lived in the US for 5 years and came back to Europe. Money isn't everything.
  - ur-whale 8y ago
    > As a German engineer, I always shiver at those "I went to hospital, the doctor turned out to be out-network and now I'm in debt for the rest of my life" discussions at HN. You're proving his point: all the risk-averse folks stay in Germany. The rest are in the bay area.
    - kazen44 8y ago