29 ms·

Germany, seeking independence from U.S., pushes cyber security research

125 points by e15ctr0n 8y ago

siruncledrew 8y ago
This seems quite reasonable for Germany to do. At some point, when you can't trust others to do such important work you need, you have to do it yourself.
- Krasnol 8y ago
  Nah, it's not. Germany has already several established agencies in this area that could use the money but wouldn't have to be build up from scratch.
  - tormeh 8y ago
    Is that a bug or a feature, though? Organizations often get stick in their ways. It might be easier to start from scratch if you want something new.
    - Krasnol 8y ago
      If we'd have much money to spend, I'd say it's a feature. We don't however so I'd say it's a bug. Also due to the persons involved, there might me some unknown motivation behind it.
TACIXAT 8y ago
Germany has a pretty awesome computer security base already. Look at CCC. The government may need to better align their values with the people's to harness that talent though.
- ur-whale 8y ago
  This, a 1000 time. Germany's (and western Europe's in general) biggest problem is not lousy compensation and sky-high taxes (although these are a huge problem as well). The biggest thing that prevents Europe from innovating is culture. Risk-taking, innovation, doing crazy "unthinkable" things is something that has simply deserted the European DNA a long time ago (probably over a century by now). Almost all the important technical inventions of the 19th century happened in Europe. Almost all the important technical inventions of the 20th century happened outside Europe. If you've ever worked in Germany in a tech company you will very likely know what I am talking about here: when you throw a new and crazy idea on the table, the immediate reaction of the crowd is to carefully explain to you the myriad of ways in which your idea is just "not possible" and "will fail". Getting a brainstorm-type session going with a group German engineers is darn near impossible. And much less so with management.
  - qznc 8y ago
    I think you are somewhat correct with your brainstorming scenario, but Germany was still plenty innovative in the last century. Software technologies like MP3 came out of Germany. Companies like SAP and Hetzner are successful and german. Berlin has a healthy startup scene. Green technologies and automotive is dominated by Germany. Overall I think Germany has plenty of risk taking engineers but the capital is more risk averse than in the US. Capital includes angel investors and pension funds and everything in between.
    - ur-whale 8y ago
      >Software technologies like MP3 came out of Germany. With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. >Companies like SAP At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I have a very hard time putting SAP and innovation in the same sentence. They're basically the Oracle of Germany. > Green technologies and automotive is dominated by Germany. I do not know enough about green tech to comment, but for automotive, I strongly disagree: incremental improvement, yes. Innovation? certainly not. Case in point: how many German company dominate in self-driving cars? All the German car makers are buying the tech. from elsewhere. As a matter of fact, thanks for picking that example: where did Sebastian Thrun have to go in order for his ideas to take flight? Why did he not choose to do his thing in Germany? >Overall I think Germany has plenty of risk taking engineers but the capital is more risk averse than in the US. Capital includes angel investors and pension funds and everything in between. You are correct that Venture cap in Western Europe is risk averse. All they invest in is European versions of stuff that's already been proven successful in the US. But what you're not seeing is that the aversion to risk from European VC is a symptom of a larger/deeper problem: statistically speaking, there is no appetite for risk and innovation in Europe. VC risk-averseness is just one facet of that. And why should there be? Given the regulatory and tax burden you're going to be subjected to when you try to do anything over there, why even effing try?
- endymi0n 8y ago
  500 times this. They have no clue how to evaluate talent and build culture. If they organize this similar to the BSI, they‘ll take PhDs fresh from Uni, take them on a career path that starts nicely above entry level market salary — but ends there pretty much already (never remotely reaching industry levels). Hackers with some psychological/social issues but great potentials like often found in top Infosec won‘t have a fighting chance, same goes for industry veterans without a degree like me.
  - Swinx43 8y ago
    +1 As someone that moved to Germany 8 months ago the biggest shock is the sort of culture being cultivated in the work place. German culture in the work place is hierarchical and extremely "old school" in my experience. Yes I know you hear about all the "cool" startups in Berlin but they are the exception and need to conform at some point if they want to do business with larger organizations that actually have money. There is a wealth of talent here but this talent simply does not fit the "desired" culture. I would go as far as saying that hacker culture is the complete opposite of what the average German company wants to deal with. You are in for a shock when you start dealing with the government departments here. They make the private companies look like bastions of liberalism. I could write a book about my experiences dealing with different government departments and agencies. If Germany wants to attract talent (or start making use of home grown talent) they need to start accepting that these people do not want to fit the mould.
    - ahartmetz 8y ago
      Well, there are corporations that can and do hire people with the hacker's mindset and corporations that don't. If you take the highest paying jobs, you usually get the latter. That is a problem.
    - flohofwoe 8y ago
      The last thing Germany needs is more Berlin-style startups though. There's has to be a good middle ground between the encrusted industry giants that have all been founded in the late 19th century, and the all-bullshitting-no-substance world of "startups".
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mschuster91 8y ago
> Interior Minister Horst Seehofer told reporters that Germany needed new tools to become a top player in cyber security and shore up European security and independence. Good grace. The man is so horribly incompetent at everything he does and his party (CSU) are even worse. I don't trust this proposal even a bit. In addition: 1) how on earth are they planning to fund and staff all of this? I worked for local government and it paid shit, and from what I hear state/fed government doesn't pay much more either, so no way to attract talent by pay. 2) Like many gov positions, this will be German nationals only (or EU nationals, not sure if German-citizens-only is still allowed under EU regulations?). Definitely no jobs for non-EU applicants. 3) Ever got a conviction for hacking or a (known) weed/other drug habit? Automatic no-go. Which is the reason why there is a severe lack of IT competency in government, no matter the level or agency. 4) Who in living hell wants to work that job? I'd expect to be kicked out of any political or hacktivist group if I were to work for our increasingly authoritarian government, let alone under Seehofer, and that with reason. That leaves as candidates only those with no other options left, and authoritarians at the best, Nazis at the worst. The police of Saxony showed on the weekend what is the result.
- mikejb 8y ago
  I've worked on projects for the German govt before, and I was never employed by them. Points 3 and 4, possibly also 2 are handled by hiring companies to do the work.
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    Seehofer wants to create an entire agency. Makes sense given that this is national security matter, I can't believe he'll (be able to) outsource this. And the other points are still valid even if outsourced, as the requirements will be part of the outsourcing contract.
    - atlasunshrugged 8y ago
      I don't know if it's not possible to outsource it, if you look to the U.S. an absolutely massive amount of work (intelligence and military ops) is outsourced to private contractors Ex source (sorry, old one, don't have time right now to find a more recent article I was thinking of for reference): https://www.salon.com/2007/06/01/intel_contractors/ https://www.salon.com/2007/06/01/intel_contractors/
russianbandit 8y ago
So, Germany is US controlled territory?
- jolmg 8y ago
  If national critical systems are running Windows or other US closed source tech, then technically yes. The US is potentially in control of these systems. This is true in Germany and in many (most?) other parts of the world. From the viewpoint of these nations, all the US needs to do is have Microsoft, Google, or whatever tech company is in control of a system of interest to insert malware or give the US government the private data it requests. I'm not saying it happens, but rather that it's certainly possible and completely in the US's playcourt to decide to control or not to control. This is why government computer systems should be open source or self-developed.
  - IanSanders 8y ago
    >all the US needs to do is have Microsoft, Google, or whatever tech company is in control of a system of interest to insert malware or give the US government the private data it requests Don't even need that. Just utilize one of the numerous vulnerabilities before it's patched.
  - mc32 8y ago
    >If national critical systems are running Windows or other US closed source tech, then technically yes. The US is potentially in control of these systems. What? So because US govt't systems run (or ran) Kaspersky (or TrendMicro) that means the US is (was) controlled, technically by Russia or Japan? Huh!
    - jolmg 8y ago
      I don't know those software or how widely utilized they are in the US and specifically in US national security critical systems. The US in a unique position, though. Windows and OSX are operating systems; they have complete control of everything else running in the systems they run on. Google has view of the world's web navigation, email authentication, as well as complete control over a grand portion of the world's phones (most of the other portion is controlled by Apple, also a US company), including knowledge of phone calls made between people, and their location at all times. Facebook also has great knowledge of how all people are interrelated. There's probably lots I'm missing, but the point is that most of the world's cyberspace (a useful word apparently) is controlled by the US. If we translate that to cyberwarfare, that means that the US practically has ALL the guns. A couple guns from other nations are not going to make a difference in this space.
h4b4n3r0 8y ago
The salary of a skilled German software engineer in this field is about 1/4th of the US counterpart. So I wish the German government luck in their endeavor, because they’re gonna need it.
- vinni2 8y ago
  I know plenty of smart Germans who do not want to move to USA even for 4-5 times the salary.
  - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
    I don't doubt it, but for the very best the multiplier is greater than that, and not moving becomes harder. The difference is between lifetime wage slavery and financial independence at that point.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      I’ve just moved to Berlin to look for software development work, and it’s nowhere near as bad as you are portraying. Lower than the USA, yes; but even junior software roles are well above “wage slavery”. Housing and medical insurance are both much cheaper here (also food, but food is so cheap generally that it being cheaper here doesn’t make much difference, unlike rent and insurance).
      - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
        Obviously this depends on the field and on your baseline in the US. I suppose if you made $100k/yr here, then making 60k euro there would not be that big of a deal, even though taxes are much higher. But if you made $500-700k/yr here in total comp (a realistic proposition for senior engineers in hot fields), such a move would be foolish. Remember, we’re not discussing the low end of the market here.
        zaarn 8y ago
        I would say, atleast from the people I meet, that there is less drive to maximize income. Once you have enough money to rent a nice apartment or house and spend some money on holidays and hobbies, most people I know don't really want any more money or not that much more. It also helps that labor protection laws are rather strong here and when you look at the US, it's horrible in comparison and not to mention the potential healthcare/other costs that could eat up your wage (I guess with total comp you mean including stock options or something like that, I've rarely seen that here, people prefer to be actually paid). That and moving to another country, possibly permanently is quite difficult and taxing.
dschuetz 8y ago
> FILE PHOTO: A German flag is seen on the laptop screen in front of a computer screen on which cyber code is displayed, in this illustration picture taken March 2, 2018. REUTERS/Kacper Pempel/Illustration Cyber code. Reuters. Cyber code.
- lloeki 8y ago
  To be entirely fair, this is an accurate alt text for the picture, as it is very much full of cyber.
- x220 8y ago
  I'd estimate that a solid 90% of the mainstream news I read about computer science subjects has factual errors. Not interpretations different than mine--stuff that just ain't true. It makes me wonder how competent the writer is, and makes me wonder if 90% of the rest of mainstream news is written just as incompetently, but I just can't notice it because I'm not an expert in everything.
  - black_puppydog 8y ago
    I can't find the name for it right now, but for me that has been a common way to think about why some "news" items stick around, even when they're total BS. People read an item within their own field and go "what a load of crap, they can't even get the basics right rage" then they turn the page, read something from a different field and go "my, that's so interesting, these people really know their stuff!"
    - godelski 8y ago
      Or even better "the media is full of bs and lying to us" turns channel to preferred starting "wow, these guys are really uncovering the deep state and showing media what's up"
    - x220 8y ago
      By the way, I've never read something in The Economist that contradicted my personal knowledge and experience. They're worth the money, I think.
adrianN 8y ago
A good start would be switching all government systems from the Microsoft stack to a home-grown alternative. But efforts to switch to Linux are regularly stopped.
- sidstling 8y ago
  It’s because it’s not really doable without tremendous effort. I work for a muniplavity in Denmark, and we’re a big participants in an open source group for public software called OS2, we’re also members of a group of municipalities that own our own ESDH software and codebase and pay private companies to support and maintain it. Our libraries operate on 100% open source with Ubuntu supported by a local company. So we’re actually pretty progressive in terms of pushing open source while also supporting local business. We operate more than 300 IT systems though, I’d say that around 75% of these run on windows only, many without suitable alternatives. So even on the technical side, we can’t swap our stack because our employees wouldn’t be able to do their jobs. We’re working to lower this, and stuff like web-apps and the rise of android/iOS devises has helped but it’ll probably take 25 years to happen, and here’s the thing, Azure is actually the most EU friendly, secure, stable and cost-efficient cloud platform, so a lot of those non-Microsoft software actually still run on Microsoft. Then there is the employee training. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but the primary cost of running a public organization is your employees. They are the most important resource and replacing them is really expensive. So is retraining them, and it’s also something we already struggle with in terms of IT. Most times when we switch a system, the technical implementation will go excellent. The organizational implementation will go horrible, however, because learning how to use an IT system is hard. It’s even harder to learn how to use it efficiently and often local management will be reluctant to invest enough time or focus on what they view as IT changes, because they are already understaffed in their primary function. Windows, android and IOS are something most people have worked with before. So is the office package, and again, where is the non-Microsoft alternative to the office365 enterprise stack? Anyway, switching people who can barely “turn on the internet” (talking of course about the browser, but that’s what you’ll literally hear every day in our support center) to open source alternatives is a tremendous effort that nobody, nobody, outside of tech wants to do. Then there is IT, we’ve run Microsoft for decades. Our staff is trained for it, they’re certified in it and despite what you may think, they’re actually cutting edge in terms of skill. At least in my country they are, we’ve yet to find an ADFS consultant that knows more about ADFS than our guys, in fact, we’ve had to send most of them home because they weren’t able to help us. Where do we find Linux replacements for those people? And how do we pay the 25 million it would cost us to replace the ones that don’t want to work with the Linux stack? Lastly there is support. Microsoft may have a spotty reputation in popular culture, but their support has always been top of the class to the public sector. If we file a primary incident report to Microsoft, Seattle will be on the phone with us until it’s fixed. What Linux house will offer this service? Even if we found one, I don’t think we’d really want to throw away decades of partnership with an untested entity just because. I wish we could run European based open source software, I really do, but the truth is that it’s complicated, highly improbable and the business case isn’t even there. Because it would be really expensive, and do you really want to sacrifice welfare to run Linux? Would your political leadership?
reacharavindh 8y ago
I used to work in the US as a perf engineer, and now live in Europe(Denmark). I made a conscious choice to live here despite a drastic cut in pay. Europe just does not pay anywhere near what US does. Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US. Want top notch Cyber Security in Germany? Start by paying well for the engineers... then may be they want to stay.
- simongray 8y ago
  > Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US. I think that the focus on take-home salary is very American and it doesn't necessarily transfer to other cultures. Europeans generally prefer getting home earlier from work, taking longer holidays, having maternity/paternity leave, and so on. Money is one thing, but as long as you make enough, the other things become more important. If you live in Denmark surely you have noticed this, even in the tech sector.
  - mseidl 8y ago
    I'm a German who had a green card in the USA. I gave it up and moved back home to Germany. I value the European lifestyle over the American. I make less but I'm happier with being treated well.
    - bitL 8y ago
      I know some Eastern Europeans that told me they were treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV
      - fasja9 8y ago
        That's a cultural thing. German-speaking countries are flooded with slavs so they are not treated so well.
        naibafo 8y ago

125 points by e15ctr0n 8y ago

This seems quite reasonable for Germany to do. At some point, when you can't trust others to do such important work you need, you have to do it yourself.

Krasnol 8y ago
Nah, it's not. Germany has already several established agencies in this area that could use the money but wouldn't have to be build up from scratch.
- tormeh 8y ago
  Is that a bug or a feature, though? Organizations often get stick in their ways. It might be easier to start from scratch if you want something new.
  - Krasnol 8y ago
    If we'd have much money to spend, I'd say it's a feature. We don't however so I'd say it's a bug. Also due to the persons involved, there might me some unknown motivation behind it.

TACIXAT 8y ago

Germany has a pretty awesome computer security base already. Look at CCC. The government may need to better align their values with the people's to harness that talent though.

ur-whale 8y ago
This, a 1000 time. Germany's (and western Europe's in general) biggest problem is not lousy compensation and sky-high taxes (although these are a huge problem as well). The biggest thing that prevents Europe from innovating is culture. Risk-taking, innovation, doing crazy "unthinkable" things is something that has simply deserted the European DNA a long time ago (probably over a century by now). Almost all the important technical inventions of the 19th century happened in Europe. Almost all the important technical inventions of the 20th century happened outside Europe. If you've ever worked in Germany in a tech company you will very likely know what I am talking about here: when you throw a new and crazy idea on the table, the immediate reaction of the crowd is to carefully explain to you the myriad of ways in which your idea is just "not possible" and "will fail". Getting a brainstorm-type session going with a group German engineers is darn near impossible. And much less so with management.
- qznc 8y ago
  I think you are somewhat correct with your brainstorming scenario, but Germany was still plenty innovative in the last century. Software technologies like MP3 came out of Germany. Companies like SAP and Hetzner are successful and german. Berlin has a healthy startup scene. Green technologies and automotive is dominated by Germany. Overall I think Germany has plenty of risk taking engineers but the capital is more risk averse than in the US. Capital includes angel investors and pension funds and everything in between.
  - ur-whale 8y ago
    >Software technologies like MP3 came out of Germany. With one of the most restrictive IP licensing scheme I've encountered in my professional life. Way to promote innovation indeed. >Companies like SAP At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I have a very hard time putting SAP and innovation in the same sentence. They're basically the Oracle of Germany. > Green technologies and automotive is dominated by Germany. I do not know enough about green tech to comment, but for automotive, I strongly disagree: incremental improvement, yes. Innovation? certainly not. Case in point: how many German company dominate in self-driving cars? All the German car makers are buying the tech. from elsewhere. As a matter of fact, thanks for picking that example: where did Sebastian Thrun have to go in order for his ideas to take flight? Why did he not choose to do his thing in Germany? >Overall I think Germany has plenty of risk taking engineers but the capital is more risk averse than in the US. Capital includes angel investors and pension funds and everything in between. You are correct that Venture cap in Western Europe is risk averse. All they invest in is European versions of stuff that's already been proven successful in the US. But what you're not seeing is that the aversion to risk from European VC is a symptom of a larger/deeper problem: statistically speaking, there is no appetite for risk and innovation in Europe. VC risk-averseness is just one facet of that. And why should there be? Given the regulatory and tax burden you're going to be subjected to when you try to do anything over there, why even effing try?
endymi0n 8y ago
500 times this. They have no clue how to evaluate talent and build culture. If they organize this similar to the BSI, they‘ll take PhDs fresh from Uni, take them on a career path that starts nicely above entry level market salary — but ends there pretty much already (never remotely reaching industry levels). Hackers with some psychological/social issues but great potentials like often found in top Infosec won‘t have a fighting chance, same goes for industry veterans without a degree like me.
- Swinx43 8y ago
  +1 As someone that moved to Germany 8 months ago the biggest shock is the sort of culture being cultivated in the work place. German culture in the work place is hierarchical and extremely "old school" in my experience. Yes I know you hear about all the "cool" startups in Berlin but they are the exception and need to conform at some point if they want to do business with larger organizations that actually have money. There is a wealth of talent here but this talent simply does not fit the "desired" culture. I would go as far as saying that hacker culture is the complete opposite of what the average German company wants to deal with. You are in for a shock when you start dealing with the government departments here. They make the private companies look like bastions of liberalism. I could write a book about my experiences dealing with different government departments and agencies. If Germany wants to attract talent (or start making use of home grown talent) they need to start accepting that these people do not want to fit the mould.
  - ahartmetz 8y ago
    Well, there are corporations that can and do hire people with the hacker's mindset and corporations that don't. If you take the highest paying jobs, you usually get the latter. That is a problem.
  - flohofwoe 8y ago
    The last thing Germany needs is more Berlin-style startups though. There's has to be a good middle ground between the encrusted industry giants that have all been founded in the late 19th century, and the all-bullshitting-no-substance world of "startups".

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mschuster91 8y ago

> Interior Minister Horst Seehofer told reporters that Germany needed new tools to become a top player in cyber security and shore up European security and independence. Good grace. The man is so horribly incompetent at everything he does and his party (CSU) are even worse. I don't trust this proposal even a bit. In addition: 1) how on earth are they planning to fund and staff all of this? I worked for local government and it paid shit, and from what I hear state/fed government doesn't pay much more either, so no way to attract talent by pay. 2) Like many gov positions, this will be German nationals only (or EU nationals, not sure if German-citizens-only is still allowed under EU regulations?). Definitely no jobs for non-EU applicants. 3) Ever got a conviction for hacking or a (known) weed/other drug habit? Automatic no-go. Which is the reason why there is a severe lack of IT competency in government, no matter the level or agency. 4) Who in living hell wants to work that job? I'd expect to be kicked out of any political or hacktivist group if I were to work for our increasingly authoritarian government, let alone under Seehofer, and that with reason. That leaves as candidates only those with no other options left, and authoritarians at the best, Nazis at the worst. The police of Saxony showed on the weekend what is the result.

mikejb 8y ago
I've worked on projects for the German govt before, and I was never employed by them. Points 3 and 4, possibly also 2 are handled by hiring companies to do the work.
- mschuster91 8y ago
  Seehofer wants to create an entire agency. Makes sense given that this is national security matter, I can't believe he'll (be able to) outsource this. And the other points are still valid even if outsourced, as the requirements will be part of the outsourcing contract.
  - atlasunshrugged 8y ago
    I don't know if it's not possible to outsource it, if you look to the U.S. an absolutely massive amount of work (intelligence and military ops) is outsourced to private contractors Ex source (sorry, old one, don't have time right now to find a more recent article I was thinking of for reference): https://www.salon.com/2007/06/01/intel_contractors/ https://www.salon.com/2007/06/01/intel_contractors/

russianbandit 8y ago

So, Germany is US controlled territory?

jolmg 8y ago
If national critical systems are running Windows or other US closed source tech, then technically yes. The US is potentially in control of these systems. This is true in Germany and in many (most?) other parts of the world. From the viewpoint of these nations, all the US needs to do is have Microsoft, Google, or whatever tech company is in control of a system of interest to insert malware or give the US government the private data it requests. I'm not saying it happens, but rather that it's certainly possible and completely in the US's playcourt to decide to control or not to control. This is why government computer systems should be open source or self-developed.
- IanSanders 8y ago
  >all the US needs to do is have Microsoft, Google, or whatever tech company is in control of a system of interest to insert malware or give the US government the private data it requests Don't even need that. Just utilize one of the numerous vulnerabilities before it's patched.
- mc32 8y ago
  >If national critical systems are running Windows or other US closed source tech, then technically yes. The US is potentially in control of these systems. What? So because US govt't systems run (or ran) Kaspersky (or TrendMicro) that means the US is (was) controlled, technically by Russia or Japan? Huh!
  - jolmg 8y ago
    I don't know those software or how widely utilized they are in the US and specifically in US national security critical systems. The US in a unique position, though. Windows and OSX are operating systems; they have complete control of everything else running in the systems they run on. Google has view of the world's web navigation, email authentication, as well as complete control over a grand portion of the world's phones (most of the other portion is controlled by Apple, also a US company), including knowledge of phone calls made between people, and their location at all times. Facebook also has great knowledge of how all people are interrelated. There's probably lots I'm missing, but the point is that most of the world's cyberspace (a useful word apparently) is controlled by the US. If we translate that to cyberwarfare, that means that the US practically has ALL the guns. A couple guns from other nations are not going to make a difference in this space.

h4b4n3r0 8y ago

The salary of a skilled German software engineer in this field is about 1/4th of the US counterpart. So I wish the German government luck in their endeavor, because they’re gonna need it.

vinni2 8y ago
I know plenty of smart Germans who do not want to move to USA even for 4-5 times the salary.
- h4b4n3r0 8y ago
  I don't doubt it, but for the very best the multiplier is greater than that, and not moving becomes harder. The difference is between lifetime wage slavery and financial independence at that point.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    I’ve just moved to Berlin to look for software development work, and it’s nowhere near as bad as you are portraying. Lower than the USA, yes; but even junior software roles are well above “wage slavery”. Housing and medical insurance are both much cheaper here (also food, but food is so cheap generally that it being cheaper here doesn’t make much difference, unlike rent and insurance).
    - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
      Obviously this depends on the field and on your baseline in the US. I suppose if you made $100k/yr here, then making 60k euro there would not be that big of a deal, even though taxes are much higher. But if you made $500-700k/yr here in total comp (a realistic proposition for senior engineers in hot fields), such a move would be foolish. Remember, we’re not discussing the low end of the market here.
      - zaarn 8y ago
        I would say, atleast from the people I meet, that there is less drive to maximize income. Once you have enough money to rent a nice apartment or house and spend some money on holidays and hobbies, most people I know don't really want any more money or not that much more. It also helps that labor protection laws are rather strong here and when you look at the US, it's horrible in comparison and not to mention the potential healthcare/other costs that could eat up your wage (I guess with total comp you mean including stock options or something like that, I've rarely seen that here, people prefer to be actually paid). That and moving to another country, possibly permanently is quite difficult and taxing.

dschuetz 8y ago

> FILE PHOTO: A German flag is seen on the laptop screen in front of a computer screen on which cyber code is displayed, in this illustration picture taken March 2, 2018. REUTERS/Kacper Pempel/Illustration Cyber code. Reuters. Cyber code.

lloeki 8y ago
To be entirely fair, this is an accurate alt text for the picture, as it is very much full of cyber.
x220 8y ago
I'd estimate that a solid 90% of the mainstream news I read about computer science subjects has factual errors. Not interpretations different than mine--stuff that just ain't true. It makes me wonder how competent the writer is, and makes me wonder if 90% of the rest of mainstream news is written just as incompetently, but I just can't notice it because I'm not an expert in everything.
- black_puppydog 8y ago
  I can't find the name for it right now, but for me that has been a common way to think about why some "news" items stick around, even when they're total BS. People read an item within their own field and go "what a load of crap, they can't even get the basics right rage" then they turn the page, read something from a different field and go "my, that's so interesting, these people really know their stuff!"
  - godelski 8y ago
    Or even better "the media is full of bs and lying to us" turns channel to preferred starting "wow, these guys are really uncovering the deep state and showing media what's up"
  - x220 8y ago
    By the way, I've never read something in The Economist that contradicted my personal knowledge and experience. They're worth the money, I think.

adrianN 8y ago

A good start would be switching all government systems from the Microsoft stack to a home-grown alternative. But efforts to switch to Linux are regularly stopped.

sidstling 8y ago
It’s because it’s not really doable without tremendous effort. I work for a muniplavity in Denmark, and we’re a big participants in an open source group for public software called OS2, we’re also members of a group of municipalities that own our own ESDH software and codebase and pay private companies to support and maintain it. Our libraries operate on 100% open source with Ubuntu supported by a local company. So we’re actually pretty progressive in terms of pushing open source while also supporting local business. We operate more than 300 IT systems though, I’d say that around 75% of these run on windows only, many without suitable alternatives. So even on the technical side, we can’t swap our stack because our employees wouldn’t be able to do their jobs. We’re working to lower this, and stuff like web-apps and the rise of android/iOS devises has helped but it’ll probably take 25 years to happen, and here’s the thing, Azure is actually the most EU friendly, secure, stable and cost-efficient cloud platform, so a lot of those non-Microsoft software actually still run on Microsoft. Then there is the employee training. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but the primary cost of running a public organization is your employees. They are the most important resource and replacing them is really expensive. So is retraining them, and it’s also something we already struggle with in terms of IT. Most times when we switch a system, the technical implementation will go excellent. The organizational implementation will go horrible, however, because learning how to use an IT system is hard. It’s even harder to learn how to use it efficiently and often local management will be reluctant to invest enough time or focus on what they view as IT changes, because they are already understaffed in their primary function. Windows, android and IOS are something most people have worked with before. So is the office package, and again, where is the non-Microsoft alternative to the office365 enterprise stack? Anyway, switching people who can barely “turn on the internet” (talking of course about the browser, but that’s what you’ll literally hear every day in our support center) to open source alternatives is a tremendous effort that nobody, nobody, outside of tech wants to do. Then there is IT, we’ve run Microsoft for decades. Our staff is trained for it, they’re certified in it and despite what you may think, they’re actually cutting edge in terms of skill. At least in my country they are, we’ve yet to find an ADFS consultant that knows more about ADFS than our guys, in fact, we’ve had to send most of them home because they weren’t able to help us. Where do we find Linux replacements for those people? And how do we pay the 25 million it would cost us to replace the ones that don’t want to work with the Linux stack? Lastly there is support. Microsoft may have a spotty reputation in popular culture, but their support has always been top of the class to the public sector. If we file a primary incident report to Microsoft, Seattle will be on the phone with us until it’s fixed. What Linux house will offer this service? Even if we found one, I don’t think we’d really want to throw away decades of partnership with an untested entity just because. I wish we could run European based open source software, I really do, but the truth is that it’s complicated, highly improbable and the business case isn’t even there. Because it would be really expensive, and do you really want to sacrifice welfare to run Linux? Would your political leadership?

reacharavindh 8y ago

I used to work in the US as a perf engineer, and now live in Europe(Denmark). I made a conscious choice to live here despite a drastic cut in pay. Europe just does not pay anywhere near what US does. Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US. Want top notch Cyber Security in Germany? Start by paying well for the engineers... then may be they want to stay.

simongray 8y ago
> Unless this changes, majority of top tech talent will always be in the US. I think that the focus on take-home salary is very American and it doesn't necessarily transfer to other cultures. Europeans generally prefer getting home earlier from work, taking longer holidays, having maternity/paternity leave, and so on. Money is one thing, but as long as you make enough, the other things become more important. If you live in Denmark surely you have noticed this, even in the tech sector.
- mseidl 8y ago
  I'm a German who had a green card in the USA. I gave it up and moved back home to Germany. I value the European lifestyle over the American. I make less but I'm happier with being treated well.
  - bitL 8y ago
    I know some Eastern Europeans that told me they were treated like garbage in Germany, but as rockstars in the US. YMMV
    - fasja9 8y ago
      That's a cultural thing. German-speaking countries are flooded with slavs so they are not treated so well.
      - naibafo 8y ago