3 ms·

> It's like a lot of the classic civil liberties scenarios, like how the "ticking time bomb scenario" can justify torture... That's all good, but we still have

> It's like a lot of the classic civil liberties scenarios, like how the "ticking time bomb scenario" can justify torture... That's all good, but we still have a bomb to find. If we say censorship is off the table of acceptable methods to combat Nazis, what are our tools? I'm going to stress again that I haven't seen any convincing argument that a passive approach will work here. The arguments all sound great ("Just ignore them and let them fizzle out!") but I'd like some historical precedents to look at before I can believe that's true. Additionally, the passive approaches don't mention that these groups are active and recruiting. They have plans and playbooks for radicalizing more members. I feel it is legitimate to worry that they will continue to galvanize and grow in power unless we stop them. But I am open to hearing alternative solutions to censorship, as long as they are more thought out and convincing. > If you don't actually let racist people say overtly racist things... I've got almost the same question here. In your ideal world, how do we respond when someone says something racist? Do we ignore it? Do we try to teach them why they're wrong? Do we denounce them and call it a day? These are serious questions.

philwelch 8y ago
> In your ideal world, how do we respond when someone says something racist? Do we ignore it? Do we try to teach them why they're wrong? Do we denounce them and call it a day? These are serious questions. Well, there are two options: If a lot of people seem to give credence to their ideas, then we absolutely have to debate those ideas in the public sphere, as overtly as possible, and because we happen to be right, we will prevail in an open debate. If, as seems to be the case today, almost nobody gives credence to their ideas, then we just let them make fools of themselves, kind of like how no one minds David Icke's claims about how the British royal family are secretly reptilians from outer space. > Additionally, the passive approaches don't mention that these groups are active and recruiting. They have plans and playbooks for radicalizing more members. I feel it is legitimate to worry that they will continue to galvanize and grow in power unless we stop them. But I am open to hearing alternative solutions to censorship, as long as they are more thought out and convincing. I would actually question the notion that these groups are growing in size and influence. While it's hard to have a perfectly controlled experiment, here's an interesting data point. One of the most politically successful overt white supremacists, David Duke, has run for political office on numerous occasions, including two campaigns for a US Senate seat in Louisiana. Duke went from polling at 11.5% (141,489 votes) for a Louisiana US Senate election in 1996 to 3% (58,581 votes) for a Louisiana US Senate election in 2016.
- nepeckman 8y ago
  > If, as seems to be the case today, almost nobody gives credence to their ideas, then we just let them make fools of themselves, kind of like how no one minds David Icke's claims about how the British royal family are secretly reptilians from outer space. Is that really the same though? The key differences as I see them: 1) History. Racism has been taught for many years (for a long time "scientifically proven"). I'm guessing Icke's views are rather new. The leads to 2) Cultural relevancy. There are plenty of racist people out there, each generation teaching the next. I'm not sure how many people believe that about the royal family, but I'm guessing not as many. This matters because 3) Racists are harmful. Unless Icke is about to break into the palace to prove his theory, he seems pretty harmless. We can leave him alone to make a fool of himself. Discrimination and hate crimes are not things I want to leave alone, I'd like them to end. > I would actually question the notion that these groups are growing in size and influence. While size may be debatable, I think influence is less so. The data I've seen says hate crimes are up in numbers. The president refuses to call these groups terrorists. Social media is filled with their propaganda and troll mobs. This doesn't feel like a group that is losing power or influence.

philwelch 8y ago

> In your ideal world, how do we respond when someone says something racist? Do we ignore it? Do we try to teach them why they're wrong? Do we denounce them and call it a day? These are serious questions. Well, there are two options: If a lot of people seem to give credence to their ideas, then we absolutely have to debate those ideas in the public sphere, as overtly as possible, and because we happen to be right, we will prevail in an open debate. If, as seems to be the case today, almost nobody gives credence to their ideas, then we just let them make fools of themselves, kind of like how no one minds David Icke's claims about how the British royal family are secretly reptilians from outer space. > Additionally, the passive approaches don't mention that these groups are active and recruiting. They have plans and playbooks for radicalizing more members. I feel it is legitimate to worry that they will continue to galvanize and grow in power unless we stop them. But I am open to hearing alternative solutions to censorship, as long as they are more thought out and convincing. I would actually question the notion that these groups are growing in size and influence. While it's hard to have a perfectly controlled experiment, here's an interesting data point. One of the most politically successful overt white supremacists, David Duke, has run for political office on numerous occasions, including two campaigns for a US Senate seat in Louisiana. Duke went from polling at 11.5% (141,489 votes) for a Louisiana US Senate election in 1996 to 3% (58,581 votes) for a Louisiana US Senate election in 2016.

nepeckman 8y ago
> If, as seems to be the case today, almost nobody gives credence to their ideas, then we just let them make fools of themselves, kind of like how no one minds David Icke's claims about how the British royal family are secretly reptilians from outer space. Is that really the same though? The key differences as I see them: 1) History. Racism has been taught for many years (for a long time "scientifically proven"). I'm guessing Icke's views are rather new. The leads to 2) Cultural relevancy. There are plenty of racist people out there, each generation teaching the next. I'm not sure how many people believe that about the royal family, but I'm guessing not as many. This matters because 3) Racists are harmful. Unless Icke is about to break into the palace to prove his theory, he seems pretty harmless. We can leave him alone to make a fool of himself. Discrimination and hate crimes are not things I want to leave alone, I'd like them to end. > I would actually question the notion that these groups are growing in size and influence. While size may be debatable, I think influence is less so. The data I've seen says hate crimes are up in numbers. The president refuses to call these groups terrorists. Social media is filled with their propaganda and troll mobs. This doesn't feel like a group that is losing power or influence.