4 ms·

U.S. denying passports to American citizens along Mexico border

fredgrott 8y ago
you have to understand how difficult it is for the Border Patrol to determine that a birth cert is not fraud... We have 50 states, sever US non states and on top of that the numerous Native American Reseverations and every one of them issues a birth cert...
- wombatpm 8y ago
  Actually it is even worse. Birth Death and Marriage records are recorded at the County Level. The Birth certificates for Will County Illinois and Cook County Illinois look completely different.
- slededit 8y ago
  Most crimes have a statute of limitations. If someone spends their whole life believing they are a US citizen it makes no sense to throw them out at the age of 40. Or even weirder - keep them inside but deny a passport. They aren't morally responsible for whatever crime was committed at the time of their birth - assuming one was even committed. Requiring proof of innocence is near impossible and ridiculous.
- muzz 8y ago
  Then why does the Federal government accept state-issued birth certificates in the first place?
remarkEon 8y ago
How hard is it to forge a birth certificate? I was under the impression it was quite difficult. Maybe with today's technology you could produce some convincing frauds, but I'm kind of skeptical this was happening at any kind of scale back then.
- Retric 8y ago
  This is not about forging a birth certificate. This is about denying birth certificates issued be the US government are actually valid.
  - masonic 8y ago
    The US government doesn't issue birth certificates (aside from births under Federal jurisdiction, like military).
    - 5555624 8y ago
      Even then, it's a form, such as an "FS-240." My sister was born in a U.S. Air Force hospital, which issued a "Certificate of Birth" and it was useless. For passport or any other time the government asked for a "birth certificate," the FS-240 was what they wanted. (It's a form with information on both parents.)
    - muzz 8y ago
      I think your point is that they are not issued by the Federal government. They are issued by state governments.
  - remarkEon 8y ago
    I think I took the word "fraudulent" a little too all encompassing then. Still ... I think my point remains. How does one go about obtaining a legitimately produced US birth certificate and then assign it to someone not born here? I imagine this would have to be a tightly controlled process at hospitals. So how do midwives get them?
    - masonic 8y ago
      A common vector for identity fraud has been to request a copy of a legitimate birth certificate of a person who died later in another state.
    - Retric 8y ago
siruncledrew 8y ago
Damn, that is messed up. Born in America, served in the U.S. Army, and is just as much a citizen as anyway else... but suddenly doomed because his name is "Juan" and is Hispanic. That's gotta be depressing as hell to give so much to a country to get turned away on a whim like that.
- hprotagonist 8y ago
  "turned away" fundamentally misapprehends the travesty of justice here.
cmurf 8y ago
No person can assert their citizenship as fact, it's the state issuing the birth certificate that asserts it as fact. And it is the U.S. State Department questioning the veracity of the issuing state. Upon being born a person isn't even sentient, they learn of their citizenship over decades through indoctrination and then accept it as an established fact. And then, the state department issued a passport at one time means they at one time accepted the veracity of the birth certificate as issued by the state government. I'm not a lawyer but I'd ask a court to rule the burden of proof is on the state department. Not the individual. And shame on any issuing state that doesn't come to the defense of someone they claim is one of their citizens.
- nikdaheratik 8y ago
  The problem is that the system doesn't work like that at all. If you have the money to hire an immigration lawyer, then you can probably get this sorted out. However, Texas and other states wouldn't have the ability to directly intervene in an individual case because the Constitution doesn't allow them to have a say in foreign affairs. They can sue the US government to get them to stop certain actions, but the Attorney General for that state is the one who makes the call here, and that is always a political consideration. Basically, the laws are written under the assumption that the people running these Departments would have a strong interest in protecting US citizens and wouldn't use their power to do massive discrimination. So you're left with getting either Congress or the Courts to intervene which takes time.

you have to understand how difficult it is for the Border Patrol to determine that a birth cert is not fraud... We have 50 states, sever US non states and on top of that the numerous Native American Reseverations and every one of them issues a birth cert...

wombatpm 8y ago
Actually it is even worse. Birth Death and Marriage records are recorded at the County Level. The Birth certificates for Will County Illinois and Cook County Illinois look completely different.
slededit 8y ago
Most crimes have a statute of limitations. If someone spends their whole life believing they are a US citizen it makes no sense to throw them out at the age of 40. Or even weirder - keep them inside but deny a passport. They aren't morally responsible for whatever crime was committed at the time of their birth - assuming one was even committed. Requiring proof of innocence is near impossible and ridiculous.
muzz 8y ago
Then why does the Federal government accept state-issued birth certificates in the first place?

remarkEon 8y ago

How hard is it to forge a birth certificate? I was under the impression it was quite difficult. Maybe with today's technology you could produce some convincing frauds, but I'm kind of skeptical this was happening at any kind of scale back then.

Retric 8y ago
This is not about forging a birth certificate. This is about denying birth certificates issued be the US government are actually valid.
- masonic 8y ago
  The US government doesn't issue birth certificates (aside from births under Federal jurisdiction, like military).
  - 5555624 8y ago
    Even then, it's a form, such as an "FS-240." My sister was born in a U.S. Air Force hospital, which issued a "Certificate of Birth" and it was useless. For passport or any other time the government asked for a "birth certificate," the FS-240 was what they wanted. (It's a form with information on both parents.)
  - muzz 8y ago
    I think your point is that they are not issued by the Federal government. They are issued by state governments.
- remarkEon 8y ago
  I think I took the word "fraudulent" a little too all encompassing then. Still ... I think my point remains. How does one go about obtaining a legitimately produced US birth certificate and then assign it to someone not born here? I imagine this would have to be a tightly controlled process at hospitals. So how do midwives get them?
  - masonic 8y ago
    A common vector for identity fraud has been to request a copy of a legitimate birth certificate of a person who died later in another state.
  - Retric 8y ago

siruncledrew 8y ago

Damn, that is messed up. Born in America, served in the U.S. Army, and is just as much a citizen as anyway else... but suddenly doomed because his name is "Juan" and is Hispanic. That's gotta be depressing as hell to give so much to a country to get turned away on a whim like that.

hprotagonist 8y ago
"turned away" fundamentally misapprehends the travesty of justice here.

cmurf 8y ago

No person can assert their citizenship as fact, it's the state issuing the birth certificate that asserts it as fact. And it is the U.S. State Department questioning the veracity of the issuing state. Upon being born a person isn't even sentient, they learn of their citizenship over decades through indoctrination and then accept it as an established fact. And then, the state department issued a passport at one time means they at one time accepted the veracity of the birth certificate as issued by the state government. I'm not a lawyer but I'd ask a court to rule the burden of proof is on the state department. Not the individual. And shame on any issuing state that doesn't come to the defense of someone they claim is one of their citizens.

nikdaheratik 8y ago
The problem is that the system doesn't work like that at all. If you have the money to hire an immigration lawyer, then you can probably get this sorted out. However, Texas and other states wouldn't have the ability to directly intervene in an individual case because the Constitution doesn't allow them to have a say in foreign affairs. They can sue the US government to get them to stop certain actions, but the Attorney General for that state is the one who makes the call here, and that is always a political consideration. Basically, the laws are written under the assumption that the people running these Departments would have a strong interest in protecting US citizens and wouldn't use their power to do massive discrimination. So you're left with getting either Congress or the Courts to intervene which takes time.