3 ms·

> Cuba and Vietnam have the same system in operation. Ask anyone in the exile communities in the United States. There's a huge selection bias in asking emigran

> Cuba and Vietnam have the same system in operation. Ask anyone in the exile communities in the United States. There's a huge selection bias in asking emigrants or exiles or refugees or whatever you prefer to call them. If you are a militant Marxist-Leninist in Cuba you probably don't want to leave.

dmix 8y ago
> If you are a militant Marxist-Leninist in Cuba You say this as if that is a voluntary, natural outcome for citizens in these countries... they grow up hearing their governments blame every problem (their gov created) on the west, while bad news coming out of the West is promoted widely to convince the public that capitalism is backwards. So while I'm sure there are some intellectuals who are legitimate marxists in Cuba, I doubt the average working class person knows the difference. If they were given the option of the wealth of the average American (or even Mexican) or the cuban one I bet they'd chose the US in a second over the rampant poverty in Cuba. The people in exile have seen what the alternatives are. They are better informed, it can't all be dismissed as bias. If anything they should have less bias than a Cuban who has never left that bubble. And if you ever visit the non-tourist parts of Cuba it's incredibly depressing what socialism has done to them.
- kenmicklas 8y ago
  Have you been to Cuba? That was not my experience there at all.
  - dmix 8y ago
    I would never make such a statement without having been there. I spent quite a lot of time walking in non-tourist areas, particularly small towns with dirt roads. I met a few locals on different occasions and visited their poorly built houses with no A/C, insects walking everywhere as the door was open to let the wind in, and pipes leaking. The stores are also severely limited in supply and prices were high for everything. The people were clearly depressed, which was apparent undertone even as they feigned niceness to the foreigners. I'm honestly shocked at people with a clear ideological agenda who try to pretend like their economic experiment wasn't a complete failure. Other parts of latin america and caribbean might be poor but Cuba could have done so much better. You can tell they are a strong-willed industrious people who work hard.
    - kenmicklas 8y ago
      What you're describing sounds like the experience in any developing country. You haven't given any evidence that it's due to socialism. (Though comparing to my experiences in developing capitalist countries I would say Cuba has a very different economic 'feeling' to it, which I would argue is superior for the level of material development.) > Other parts of latin america and caribbean might be poor but Cuba could have done so much better. You can tell they are a strong-willed industrious people who work hard. Wait so if they had capitalism the Cuban economy would be better than other poor Latin American economies because they work harder? At least you're not making the classic disingenuous comparison between the economic development of imperialist superpowers and socialist nations that started off poor...
- Sag0Sag0 8y ago
  I'm sorry but it is completely legitimate for Cuba to blame the west (mostly the US) for problems the west created for them in trying to force Cuba to change its governments political ideology. The idea that all Cuban citizens are brainwashed applies also to US citizens. US citizens are also indoctrinated to believe that capitalism is the only way from when they are toddlers. The Cuban immigrant's bias should at least be taken into account, you are selecting a group of people to interview who left Cuba because they hated the government. Of course they are going to say bad things about that same government. "And if you ever visit the non-tourist parts of Cuba it's incredibly depressing what socialism has done to them". Socialism has done great things for the people of Cuba considering the constraints they have had put on them by the west. The government has massively increased the average Cubans literacy, improved working conditions conditions and instituted high quality free medical care making it so that wealth isn't the deciding factor on how long you live. Cuba would be far worse in an alternative reality where Batista stayed in power.
  - kenmicklas 8y ago
    The fact that you are being downvoted for this is such a perfect proof of what you're saying, ironically.
    - Sag0Sag0 8y ago
      It would be nice if someone at least addressed it.

dmix 8y ago

> If you are a militant Marxist-Leninist in Cuba You say this as if that is a voluntary, natural outcome for citizens in these countries... they grow up hearing their governments blame every problem (their gov created) on the west, while bad news coming out of the West is promoted widely to convince the public that capitalism is backwards. So while I'm sure there are some intellectuals who are legitimate marxists in Cuba, I doubt the average working class person knows the difference. If they were given the option of the wealth of the average American (or even Mexican) or the cuban one I bet they'd chose the US in a second over the rampant poverty in Cuba. The people in exile have seen what the alternatives are. They are better informed, it can't all be dismissed as bias. If anything they should have less bias than a Cuban who has never left that bubble. And if you ever visit the non-tourist parts of Cuba it's incredibly depressing what socialism has done to them.

kenmicklas 8y ago
Have you been to Cuba? That was not my experience there at all.
- dmix 8y ago
  I would never make such a statement without having been there. I spent quite a lot of time walking in non-tourist areas, particularly small towns with dirt roads. I met a few locals on different occasions and visited their poorly built houses with no A/C, insects walking everywhere as the door was open to let the wind in, and pipes leaking. The stores are also severely limited in supply and prices were high for everything. The people were clearly depressed, which was apparent undertone even as they feigned niceness to the foreigners. I'm honestly shocked at people with a clear ideological agenda who try to pretend like their economic experiment wasn't a complete failure. Other parts of latin america and caribbean might be poor but Cuba could have done so much better. You can tell they are a strong-willed industrious people who work hard.
  - kenmicklas 8y ago
    What you're describing sounds like the experience in any developing country. You haven't given any evidence that it's due to socialism. (Though comparing to my experiences in developing capitalist countries I would say Cuba has a very different economic 'feeling' to it, which I would argue is superior for the level of material development.) > Other parts of latin america and caribbean might be poor but Cuba could have done so much better. You can tell they are a strong-willed industrious people who work hard. Wait so if they had capitalism the Cuban economy would be better than other poor Latin American economies because they work harder? At least you're not making the classic disingenuous comparison between the economic development of imperialist superpowers and socialist nations that started off poor...
Sag0Sag0 8y ago
I'm sorry but it is completely legitimate for Cuba to blame the west (mostly the US) for problems the west created for them in trying to force Cuba to change its governments political ideology. The idea that all Cuban citizens are brainwashed applies also to US citizens. US citizens are also indoctrinated to believe that capitalism is the only way from when they are toddlers. The Cuban immigrant's bias should at least be taken into account, you are selecting a group of people to interview who left Cuba because they hated the government. Of course they are going to say bad things about that same government. "And if you ever visit the non-tourist parts of Cuba it's incredibly depressing what socialism has done to them". Socialism has done great things for the people of Cuba considering the constraints they have had put on them by the west. The government has massively increased the average Cubans literacy, improved working conditions conditions and instituted high quality free medical care making it so that wealth isn't the deciding factor on how long you live. Cuba would be far worse in an alternative reality where Batista stayed in power.
- kenmicklas 8y ago
  The fact that you are being downvoted for this is such a perfect proof of what you're saying, ironically.
  - Sag0Sag0 8y ago
    It would be nice if someone at least addressed it.