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>When those niceties are not a free choice, but "strongly encouraged" by management, they quickly stop being nice. It isn't about being nice though - it's abou

by Nadya 8y ago

>When those niceties are not a free choice, but "strongly encouraged" by management, they quickly stop being nice. It isn't about being nice though - it's about giving the appearance of nice. If everyone is being nice and courteous to one another for the sake of group harmony, then I think it is good. I can understand why many people would be irritated by it, but then this kind of culture isn't for them. I visit Japan often and I'm aware of just how much of the culture is a "bullshit front". That's not surprising when an important concept is around being two-faced[0]. If this type of culture bothers you - it's a terrible country to live in. But the constant "faking for group harmony" leads to actual group harmony as far as I can tell. It's enjoyable being in a culture where people try to support one another than one that's an individualistic - "everyone fend for themselves" - culture like the U.S.A. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

asnyder 8y ago
The "everyone fend for themselves" trope of American in my opinion is only perceived this way due to a concerted effort by Libertarians and Conservatives to push this thinking, and during periods where those views have power (such as now) it becomes even more engrained that this is "America" and further fuels efforts to remove those social nets and other social connectivity that was promoted and emphasized during periods of increased interconnectivity (ex. Obama - Public Service, Healthcare, Living Wages, Consumer Protection, Environment, Battery and Clean Energy foundations, Net neutrality, Auto-rescue, open government data, LGBTQ). As long as we remember and push against this false "fend for themselves", it need not become America.
antoniuschan99 8y ago
That's the love hate relationship with Japan. When I visited there the first time I thought wow everyone is so friendly and the customer service is great! But the more I visited and spoke with my friends who live there, realize that a lot of it is just to put up a face because that is what society there requires them to do. On a personal level it is quite sad in a way, but I also wish the customer service would be like that everywhere else in the world.
- twblalock 8y ago
  I dont see why it’s sad. They figured out that being nice to people, even when they don’t feel like being nice, makes society run better.
  - Nadya 8y ago
    It's sad on an individual level - and I'm sure it contributes to Japan's high suicide rate and people who choose to withdraw from society [0]. Many cultures have a similar concept of "putting your personal feelings aside" but to varying degrees. In the US you put on a "professional persona" and may set your personal feelings aside while at work. But if you're at a job where your personal and professional personas are at ends with one another - you're going to be very unhappy. If your personal and public personas are at ends with one another, in a society where you're almost always required to put on your "public persona", you're going to be unhappy all the time. You can choose to withdraw from society so you no longer need to fake a public persona - but even that is very difficult and can make people unhappy (using the old "we're meant to be social animals" excuse). I think the culture works for people who's personal and public personas are mostly in agreement with one another and people who have made peace with setting their own selves aside for "the greater good" (if "societal harmony" is an acceptable "greater good", which I personally feel it is). All in my own opinion of course. I don't have data on hand to support any of my claims. :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
    - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
      Regarding suicide, I blame relatively poor mental healthcare, rigid societal expectations of people's lives (family & career track), and a (supposed) history of suicide as a solution. Or maybe in the West, with cultural roots in Christianity, which strongly discourages suicide, we might just be benefiting from more social taboo around it.
      - Nadya 8y ago
        Oh, I'm not saying it's the "only" reason - but a contributing factor. Constant high expectations, the poor work/life balance, and that losing your job after you're 30 basically means you're now considered unemployable doesn't help either.

by Nadya 8y ago

asnyder 8y ago

The "everyone fend for themselves" trope of American in my opinion is only perceived this way due to a concerted effort by Libertarians and Conservatives to push this thinking, and during periods where those views have power (such as now) it becomes even more engrained that this is "America" and further fuels efforts to remove those social nets and other social connectivity that was promoted and emphasized during periods of increased interconnectivity (ex. Obama - Public Service, Healthcare, Living Wages, Consumer Protection, Environment, Battery and Clean Energy foundations, Net neutrality, Auto-rescue, open government data, LGBTQ). As long as we remember and push against this false "fend for themselves", it need not become America.

antoniuschan99 8y ago

That's the love hate relationship with Japan. When I visited there the first time I thought wow everyone is so friendly and the customer service is great! But the more I visited and spoke with my friends who live there, realize that a lot of it is just to put up a face because that is what society there requires them to do. On a personal level it is quite sad in a way, but I also wish the customer service would be like that everywhere else in the world.

twblalock 8y ago
I dont see why it’s sad. They figured out that being nice to people, even when they don’t feel like being nice, makes society run better.
- Nadya 8y ago
  It's sad on an individual level - and I'm sure it contributes to Japan's high suicide rate and people who choose to withdraw from society [0]. Many cultures have a similar concept of "putting your personal feelings aside" but to varying degrees. In the US you put on a "professional persona" and may set your personal feelings aside while at work. But if you're at a job where your personal and professional personas are at ends with one another - you're going to be very unhappy. If your personal and public personas are at ends with one another, in a society where you're almost always required to put on your "public persona", you're going to be unhappy all the time. You can choose to withdraw from society so you no longer need to fake a public persona - but even that is very difficult and can make people unhappy (using the old "we're meant to be social animals" excuse). I think the culture works for people who's personal and public personas are mostly in agreement with one another and people who have made peace with setting their own selves aside for "the greater good" (if "societal harmony" is an acceptable "greater good", which I personally feel it is). All in my own opinion of course. I don't have data on hand to support any of my claims. :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
  - hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
    Regarding suicide, I blame relatively poor mental healthcare, rigid societal expectations of people's lives (family & career track), and a (supposed) history of suicide as a solution. Or maybe in the West, with cultural roots in Christianity, which strongly discourages suicide, we might just be benefiting from more social taboo around it.
    - Nadya 8y ago
      Oh, I'm not saying it's the "only" reason - but a contributing factor. Constant high expectations, the poor work/life balance, and that losing your job after you're 30 basically means you're now considered unemployable doesn't help either.