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At the ever present risk of being downvoted: should we be able to chemically forgive ourselves for anything/everything? Aren’t there some things that are so te

At the ever present risk of being downvoted: should we be able to chemically forgive ourselves for anything/everything? Aren’t there some things that are so terrible that we should continue to feel guilty?

foxyv 8y ago
Yes, if your only goal is to punish then making sure that people are eternally guilt ridden would make sense. If your goal is to reduce human suffering then no that doesn't make sense. In the case of this soldier he is most definitely deserving of help and respect.
- projectramo 8y ago
  I am not asking if it should be done in any particular case, but in every case. I can concoct particular examples but it gets dramatic quickly. I am sure you can come up with some extreme examples. Are you saying you are okay with the person forgiving themselves in every example you can think of? Does it matter if the person can forgive themselves "easily" i.e. immediately after the act, and for all time with no consequences?
  - seatdrummer 8y ago
    On principle our justice system is based on preventing harm of law abiding citizens, and not to harm the guilty. Allowing the guilty to forgive themselves might be a luxury, but it wouldn't violate justice even though it feels merciful.
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
Only if you want folks to suffer and have trouble being part of society. I'll add that PTSD doesn't only happen to people that have done things - it happens to folks that have been through some sort of trauma. Victims of child abuse or spousal abuse, for example. Sometimes folks that have been in car accidents, fires, and other such things. I know a person that is in inpatient treatment right now because it got so bad... again. She's mostly in treatment because the thought of her children going through a parental suicide made her feel badly. And I'll add this as well: Soldiers don't always have the real choice to do things differently, especially in draft situations or if someone has been lied to in recruitment (really common). And I'll add that forgiving oneself is not the same as being OK with everything that happened, simply that the overriding guilt doesn't own your life and affect everyone that you know. People change but their past often doesn't (there are some exceptions, such as missed information, but what you thought is still what you thought).
- projectramo 8y ago
  Soldiers in particular seem to be a very polarizing example. As a philosophical point, I am okay with non-soldier examples. Does you argument still stand?
  - taurath 8y ago
    I'd say it absolutely does. PTSD is primarily caused in people that had a traumatic experience. Trauma in one's childhood from abusive or neglectful situations is probably more common than soldiers. The point there isn't to "chemically forgive", its to help people realize they weren't at fault in the first place. Still, if you think the point or goal of the topic here is "chemical forgiveness" then you're way off base in the first place - someone can be so horrified they can't even internalize the shame of what they did. The point isn't to feel good about doing bad things.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    Yes. Being a soldier shouldn't mean you suffer for the rest of your life to the point that you cannot really participate in life. Not all soldiers who wind up with PTSD have committed atrocities. You can be a medic and get PTSD. A translator. And so on. At the same time, some of those folks that do horrible things do not always wind up with PTSD. Not only that, but such things take a toll on society. Their families suffer - children, spouses, parents, siblings - and it is a drain on medical care. Why would we not make it so folks can lead a better life? I'm not even a supporter of much of what a military does. They war, and rarely do the rebuilding or giving back to the community outside of a PR stunt. (NASA gets a break here, they don't seem to be a warring segment). But that doesn't mean the little folks on the ground need to suffer for life. I don't think most folks are happy about the thing that gave them PTSD, but that's not what the drug does. (Side note: I've taken this particular drug). It simply makes it so you aren't caught up on it and can get back to living in the present. That thing stops eating your brain and linking that thing to more innocent things in every day life.
golergka 8y ago
May be, but I didn't see examples of those things in the article.

foxyv 8y ago

Yes, if your only goal is to punish then making sure that people are eternally guilt ridden would make sense. If your goal is to reduce human suffering then no that doesn't make sense. In the case of this soldier he is most definitely deserving of help and respect.

projectramo 8y ago
I am not asking if it should be done in any particular case, but in every case. I can concoct particular examples but it gets dramatic quickly. I am sure you can come up with some extreme examples. Are you saying you are okay with the person forgiving themselves in every example you can think of? Does it matter if the person can forgive themselves "easily" i.e. immediately after the act, and for all time with no consequences?
- seatdrummer 8y ago
  On principle our justice system is based on preventing harm of law abiding citizens, and not to harm the guilty. Allowing the guilty to forgive themselves might be a luxury, but it wouldn't violate justice even though it feels merciful.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago

Only if you want folks to suffer and have trouble being part of society. I'll add that PTSD doesn't only happen to people that have done things - it happens to folks that have been through some sort of trauma. Victims of child abuse or spousal abuse, for example. Sometimes folks that have been in car accidents, fires, and other such things. I know a person that is in inpatient treatment right now because it got so bad... again. She's mostly in treatment because the thought of her children going through a parental suicide made her feel badly. And I'll add this as well: Soldiers don't always have the real choice to do things differently, especially in draft situations or if someone has been lied to in recruitment (really common). And I'll add that forgiving oneself is not the same as being OK with everything that happened, simply that the overriding guilt doesn't own your life and affect everyone that you know. People change but their past often doesn't (there are some exceptions, such as missed information, but what you thought is still what you thought).

projectramo 8y ago
Soldiers in particular seem to be a very polarizing example. As a philosophical point, I am okay with non-soldier examples. Does you argument still stand?
- taurath 8y ago
  I'd say it absolutely does. PTSD is primarily caused in people that had a traumatic experience. Trauma in one's childhood from abusive or neglectful situations is probably more common than soldiers. The point there isn't to "chemically forgive", its to help people realize they weren't at fault in the first place. Still, if you think the point or goal of the topic here is "chemical forgiveness" then you're way off base in the first place - someone can be so horrified they can't even internalize the shame of what they did. The point isn't to feel good about doing bad things.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  Yes. Being a soldier shouldn't mean you suffer for the rest of your life to the point that you cannot really participate in life. Not all soldiers who wind up with PTSD have committed atrocities. You can be a medic and get PTSD. A translator. And so on. At the same time, some of those folks that do horrible things do not always wind up with PTSD. Not only that, but such things take a toll on society. Their families suffer - children, spouses, parents, siblings - and it is a drain on medical care. Why would we not make it so folks can lead a better life? I'm not even a supporter of much of what a military does. They war, and rarely do the rebuilding or giving back to the community outside of a PR stunt. (NASA gets a break here, they don't seem to be a warring segment). But that doesn't mean the little folks on the ground need to suffer for life. I don't think most folks are happy about the thing that gave them PTSD, but that's not what the drug does. (Side note: I've taken this particular drug). It simply makes it so you aren't caught up on it and can get back to living in the present. That thing stops eating your brain and linking that thing to more innocent things in every day life.

golergka 8y ago

May be, but I didn't see examples of those things in the article.