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I'm sure this is similar in other cultures but Japan still has a strong attitude that you're lucky to have a job. Contrast that to us (myself included) spoiled

I'm sure this is similar in other cultures but Japan still has a strong attitude that you're lucky to have a job. Contrast that to us (myself included) spoiled Silicon Valley type engineer who gets job offers often and companies trying to entice us with free food, game rooms, etc... From that, people who have a job in Japan often feel obligated as in "You gave my a job and made it possible to live my life. You invested N years in training me. I'm now responsible for various parts of your business. If I leave it will feel like not paying you back for all you've given me. It will also put you out for weeks to months.". Japanese have an acute sense of obligation as well. There's a reason why you say "Don't worry this is really nothing" when you give a gift in Japan as you're trying to avoid adding to the receiver's obligation to reciprocate. Of course as a westerner that attitude used to bug the crap out of me. I knew a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit", and they stayed on for several more months. At some point in my life my attitude would have probably been something along the lines of "If it's that important I stick around what's it worth to you?" The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and spoiled engineer attitudes. Of course not totally but I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes than the "we're all in this together" attitude or the "it takes a village" attitude I see more of in Japan. I think both extremes are bad but if my meter was pointing at the 100% me side before it's now around the 75% me side, 25% us side, now.

wolfgke 8y ago
> I'm sure this is similar in other cultures but Japan still has a strong attitude that you're lucky to have a job. Contrast that to us (myself included) spoiled Silicon Valley type engineer who gets job offers often and companies trying to entice us with free food, game rooms, etc... [...] > The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and spoiled engineer attitudes. Could this all plausibly be explained simply by buyer's market vs sellers's market for the respective jobs? I mean: if there exist far less good programmers than demand for them on the market, employees will easily become entitled (side story: for example in Germany, the job market for programmers is very different from what I read about the situation in the Silicon Valley on HN). On the other hand, if employers have lots of potential employees to choose from, the power dynamics is entirely different.
jpatokal 8y ago
Well, there's also the fact that traditionally, if you quit a seishain (full time) job in Japan, you're seen as damaged goods (why else would you quit/be forced by your company to quit?) and it's exceedingly unlikely that another company would want to hire you. Obviously this is no longer true in the IT sphere, but in other industries this remains more or less the norm.
lx3459683 8y ago
> I knew a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit", and they stayed on for several more months [...] > I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes I think your anecdote there proves otherwise. That person was asked to act against their own interest and did it out of feebleness. They didn't gain anything in return, it was not a equitable exchange where e.g the boss paid out an additional bonus for the employee continuing to stay against their wish. In a capitalist society, it is always workers vs employers. Do not mistake Japan's social cohesion for some kind of workplace utopia. It is one of the worst countries on earth in terms of work life balance - which is currently destroying their entire society as childbirth rates plummet. This is not hyperbole. By 2030 years ~85% of the population will be elderly people.
- tokyodude 8y ago
  I don't know where you got the idea I thought Japan was a workplace utopia. Yea I know it sucks. My point was the social cohesion has it's pluses. I didn't name any of them so I guess that makes my point poorly made. Maybe this will make it clearer? Let's say you do a contract for $1000. As the contract progresses they promote you to fellow business people. "This guy's great. You should contract him for your needs". At the end of the contract you get paid the $1000. You're then asked, "hey, could you print 1 extra copy of that report" Possible responses 1. Sure, That will be $50 2. Sure, on problem. Here you go. Probably a bad example but I'd argue that (1) is the "me" attitude and (2) is the "us" attitude. They gave you free PR. I guess they should have been "Oh, you want me to tell me business contacts about you? Give me 10% for each successful contract". I want to live in world (1) where people help each other unless it's total unreasonable.. Staying extra months at the company could arguably be unreasonable but it's also possible to feel obligation. You don't know how much training that employee received or what else they got from the relationship. As another example, some company could hire you with zero experience (taking a chance). You'd applied to 25 places but everyone said "no experience no hire". You work at this company and mostly they get very little good work out of you because they're giving you so much training. Not only are you slower than the experienced people but those experienced people have to spend time explaining better ways to do things to you, time they could be spending directly on their other responsibilities. At the end of year you now have "experience" so you ditch the company for another job. Some people would see that as close to theft. You just took a free paid education from them when they were hoping the deal was they'd train you, even paying you while you're being trained vs you having to pay a school to train you, and then they expected you to be a productive employee for at least a year or two after the training. Would you seriously feel zero obligation?
emodendroket 8y ago
The problem is that, while employees still feel this sense of obligation, management has gradually undergone "Americanization" and has far fewer qualms about not holding up their end of the bargain.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
I'm sorry, but I absolutely cannot get behind any of this "spoiled engineer" stuff. Mainly because employers here, not completely in tech but in general in the US are shit, and treat their staff like shit. That "You gave my a job and made it possible to live my life. You invested N years in training me. I'm now responsible for various parts of your business." doesn't apply here, because most employers simply don't do that.

wolfgke 8y ago

> I'm sure this is similar in other cultures but Japan still has a strong attitude that you're lucky to have a job. Contrast that to us (myself included) spoiled Silicon Valley type engineer who gets job offers often and companies trying to entice us with free food, game rooms, etc... [...] > The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and spoiled engineer attitudes. Could this all plausibly be explained simply by buyer's market vs sellers's market for the respective jobs? I mean: if there exist far less good programmers than demand for them on the market, employees will easily become entitled (side story: for example in Germany, the job market for programmers is very different from what I read about the situation in the Silicon Valley on HN). On the other hand, if employers have lots of potential employees to choose from, the power dynamics is entirely different.

jpatokal 8y ago

Well, there's also the fact that traditionally, if you quit a seishain (full time) job in Japan, you're seen as damaged goods (why else would you quit/be forced by your company to quit?) and it's exceedingly unlikely that another company would want to hire you. Obviously this is no longer true in the IT sphere, but in other industries this remains more or less the norm.

lx3459683 8y ago

> I knew a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit", and they stayed on for several more months [...] > I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes I think your anecdote there proves otherwise. That person was asked to act against their own interest and did it out of feebleness. They didn't gain anything in return, it was not a equitable exchange where e.g the boss paid out an additional bonus for the employee continuing to stay against their wish. In a capitalist society, it is always workers vs employers. Do not mistake Japan's social cohesion for some kind of workplace utopia. It is one of the worst countries on earth in terms of work life balance - which is currently destroying their entire society as childbirth rates plummet. This is not hyperbole. By 2030 years ~85% of the population will be elderly people.

tokyodude 8y ago
I don't know where you got the idea I thought Japan was a workplace utopia. Yea I know it sucks. My point was the social cohesion has it's pluses. I didn't name any of them so I guess that makes my point poorly made. Maybe this will make it clearer? Let's say you do a contract for $1000. As the contract progresses they promote you to fellow business people. "This guy's great. You should contract him for your needs". At the end of the contract you get paid the $1000. You're then asked, "hey, could you print 1 extra copy of that report" Possible responses 1. Sure, That will be $50 2. Sure, on problem. Here you go. Probably a bad example but I'd argue that (1) is the "me" attitude and (2) is the "us" attitude. They gave you free PR. I guess they should have been "Oh, you want me to tell me business contacts about you? Give me 10% for each successful contract". I want to live in world (1) where people help each other unless it's total unreasonable.. Staying extra months at the company could arguably be unreasonable but it's also possible to feel obligation. You don't know how much training that employee received or what else they got from the relationship. As another example, some company could hire you with zero experience (taking a chance). You'd applied to 25 places but everyone said "no experience no hire". You work at this company and mostly they get very little good work out of you because they're giving you so much training. Not only are you slower than the experienced people but those experienced people have to spend time explaining better ways to do things to you, time they could be spending directly on their other responsibilities. At the end of year you now have "experience" so you ditch the company for another job. Some people would see that as close to theft. You just took a free paid education from them when they were hoping the deal was they'd train you, even paying you while you're being trained vs you having to pay a school to train you, and then they expected you to be a productive employee for at least a year or two after the training. Would you seriously feel zero obligation?

emodendroket 8y ago

The problem is that, while employees still feel this sense of obligation, management has gradually undergone "Americanization" and has far fewer qualms about not holding up their end of the bargain.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

I'm sorry, but I absolutely cannot get behind any of this "spoiled engineer" stuff. Mainly because employers here, not completely in tech but in general in the US are shit, and treat their staff like shit. That "You gave my a job and made it possible to live my life. You invested N years in training me. I'm now responsible for various parts of your business." doesn't apply here, because most employers simply don't do that.