5 ms·

While I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism, this is a fascinating result. Ed is extremely interested in and well ver

by hyperion2010 8y ago

While I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism, this is a fascinating result. Ed is extremely interested in and well versed in comparative neurobiology, and despite the deathgrip that Allen's PR team has on all external communication, the fact that he seems to have approved of the spin is a good sign. Second, the primary outstanding question that I have is whether we have actually sampled the population in L1 sufficiently in other species. Another (maybe unpublished?) result that has come out of Ed's group (and collaborators) is that human neurons are extremely metabolically robust. They are almost like turtle neurons, they can be patched for extended periods of time and live for days to weeks. When compared to rodents this means that this cell type might simply be living long enough to see it, and dying too quickly/being too unhealthy to patch in rodents. The transcriptomic data suggests that this might not be the case, but the results from the sequencing of marmoset cell types are not in yet, and good luck getting this data for a great ape.

buntress 8y ago
Once an aspect of human exceptionalism is noted, I would imagine one would look at chimpanzees as the next analogue, and not mice. Nearest neighbor, top down, based on genetic similarity. If you’ve got something, and it seems that it’s only detected in humans, aren’t chimpanzees (or may other great apes) the gold standard for human comparative biology? Then follow the chain, back through old world monkeys, before reaching rodentia.
- nonbel 8y ago
  I had some old pictures of stained rodent brains and saw something looked qualitatively like what they described in the first (and only) image I checked. Since they dont give any definite criteria for me to compare against, what can I do?
  - hyperion2010 8y ago
    Well, they give about the most definite criteria they can given current techniques, which is the transcriptomic profile. In fig 2e [0] they also give a bouton density profile. If you still have the pictures and have neurogliaform and basket cells stained with the same technique, you should be able to determine whether you are in the ballpark. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-018-0205-2/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-018-0205-2/figures/2
    - nonbel 8y ago
      I looked at the paper. I mean there needs to be a table that tells us what they consider the acceptable range for spine density, bouton density, soma size, soma ellipsity or whatever shape stats, branching stats, etc. I dont really know what to do with that figure 2e... it looks like they cherry picked stats where they saw a "significant difference" from the other types of cells they looked at.
  - buntress 8y ago
    I'd imagine there are slides, and slides, and slides of ape neurons in circulation, possibly imaged as photomicrographs and stored in digital libraries, and heaping data sets of genomic primate data. Are data rights costly? I doubt that sort of information has a shelf life. Consider that HELA cells are still around. If they release the specific results, and how they arrived at such conclusions, others should be able to take that in hand, and move quickly to look at primate corollaries.
- adrianN 8y ago
  It's a lot cheaper and ethically less problematic to use lab rats instead of apes, so that's what we usually do.
  - buntress 8y ago
    Well, yeah, but ape brains from deceased apes in captivity are probably short-listed for science experiments and not cremation or natural burial. So it’s probably less difficult than finding a match for an organ donor, no? I think they have some currency to start a search for samples, with this first stage finding. But really, as we’re finding out, replication will be important too.
    - SubiculumCode 8y ago
      Let's say you have rats and human brain samples and are ready to present a finding. Do you hold off until you find an ape brain, find expertise in dealing with ape brains (if reqiured), deal with IRB issues related to using those materials, run the tests, then publish? Obviously not. You use this preliminary work to run a more definitive series of experiments. This is how science works..as a series of studies, not a single definitive study.
- SubiculumCode 8y ago
  If money and logistics were not an issue, you might be right about it being the most logical step, but primate research is not something that is largely accessible to most researchers. In any case, a null in rodents tends to put a limit on how out from humans such a neuron goes, and they are cheap to work with.
nonbel 8y ago
>"While I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism, this is a fascinating result...the primary outstanding question that I have is whether we have actually sampled the population in L1 sufficiently in other species." What do you mean by "sufficiently"? Did they check in any animals? Did they provide a list of criteria that, if met, allow definite identification of these cells in an animal? Can you quote these parts of the paper?
- hyperion2010 8y ago
  This paper did not check. This was a purely human study. I'm talking about known results in the field.
cicero 8y ago
> I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism Why are you skeptical? There is clearly a huge leap in rational intelligence when you go from other animals to humans. I would expect we would eventually find a reason for it.
- tormeh 8y ago
  >There is clearly a huge leap in rational intelligence when you go from other animals to humans Citation needed. Monkeys/apes even fight wars between tribes. All differences between humans and other animals seem to be purely quantitative. I'm sure the difference between your average cat and the smartest species of non-human monkeys/apes are greater than the difference between the smartest species of non-human monkeys/apes and your average human.
  - travmatt 8y ago
    I wonder how dolphins and elephants would compare to human intelligence if they had vocals pathways capable of speaking and limbs capable of grasping.
    - JackFr 8y ago
      "If a lion could speak we wouldn't understand him" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_Investigations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_Investigations
    - labster 8y ago
      I'm pretty sure I've heard dolphins speaking and seen elephants grasping.
      - crooked-v 8y ago
        Elephants have a grasping limb, not grasping limbs. That may seem pedantic, but having at least two hands is probably a prerequisite for a lot of simple technological development.

buntress 8y ago

Once an aspect of human exceptionalism is noted, I would imagine one would look at chimpanzees as the next analogue, and not mice. Nearest neighbor, top down, based on genetic similarity. If you’ve got something, and it seems that it’s only detected in humans, aren’t chimpanzees (or may other great apes) the gold standard for human comparative biology? Then follow the chain, back through old world monkeys, before reaching rodentia.

nonbel 8y ago
I had some old pictures of stained rodent brains and saw something looked qualitatively like what they described in the first (and only) image I checked. Since they dont give any definite criteria for me to compare against, what can I do?
- hyperion2010 8y ago
  Well, they give about the most definite criteria they can given current techniques, which is the transcriptomic profile. In fig 2e [0] they also give a bouton density profile. If you still have the pictures and have neurogliaform and basket cells stained with the same technique, you should be able to determine whether you are in the ballpark. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-018-0205-2/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-018-0205-2/figures/2
  - nonbel 8y ago
    I looked at the paper. I mean there needs to be a table that tells us what they consider the acceptable range for spine density, bouton density, soma size, soma ellipsity or whatever shape stats, branching stats, etc. I dont really know what to do with that figure 2e... it looks like they cherry picked stats where they saw a "significant difference" from the other types of cells they looked at.
- buntress 8y ago
  I'd imagine there are slides, and slides, and slides of ape neurons in circulation, possibly imaged as photomicrographs and stored in digital libraries, and heaping data sets of genomic primate data. Are data rights costly? I doubt that sort of information has a shelf life. Consider that HELA cells are still around. If they release the specific results, and how they arrived at such conclusions, others should be able to take that in hand, and move quickly to look at primate corollaries.
adrianN 8y ago
It's a lot cheaper and ethically less problematic to use lab rats instead of apes, so that's what we usually do.
- buntress 8y ago
  Well, yeah, but ape brains from deceased apes in captivity are probably short-listed for science experiments and not cremation or natural burial. So it’s probably less difficult than finding a match for an organ donor, no? I think they have some currency to start a search for samples, with this first stage finding. But really, as we’re finding out, replication will be important too.
  - SubiculumCode 8y ago
    Let's say you have rats and human brain samples and are ready to present a finding. Do you hold off until you find an ape brain, find expertise in dealing with ape brains (if reqiured), deal with IRB issues related to using those materials, run the tests, then publish? Obviously not. You use this preliminary work to run a more definitive series of experiments. This is how science works..as a series of studies, not a single definitive study.
SubiculumCode 8y ago
If money and logistics were not an issue, you might be right about it being the most logical step, but primate research is not something that is largely accessible to most researchers. In any case, a null in rodents tends to put a limit on how out from humans such a neuron goes, and they are cheap to work with.

nonbel 8y ago

>"While I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism, this is a fascinating result...the primary outstanding question that I have is whether we have actually sampled the population in L1 sufficiently in other species." What do you mean by "sufficiently"? Did they check in any animals? Did they provide a list of criteria that, if met, allow definite identification of these cells in an animal? Can you quote these parts of the paper?

hyperion2010 8y ago
This paper did not check. This was a purely human study. I'm talking about known results in the field.

cicero 8y ago

> I am usually sceptical of anything that has even a whiff of human exceptionalism Why are you skeptical? There is clearly a huge leap in rational intelligence when you go from other animals to humans. I would expect we would eventually find a reason for it.

tormeh 8y ago
>There is clearly a huge leap in rational intelligence when you go from other animals to humans Citation needed. Monkeys/apes even fight wars between tribes. All differences between humans and other animals seem to be purely quantitative. I'm sure the difference between your average cat and the smartest species of non-human monkeys/apes are greater than the difference between the smartest species of non-human monkeys/apes and your average human.
- travmatt 8y ago
  I wonder how dolphins and elephants would compare to human intelligence if they had vocals pathways capable of speaking and limbs capable of grasping.
  - JackFr 8y ago
    "If a lion could speak we wouldn't understand him" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_Investigations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_Investigations
  - labster 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure I've heard dolphins speaking and seen elephants grasping.
    - crooked-v 8y ago
      Elephants have a grasping limb, not grasping limbs. That may seem pedantic, but having at least two hands is probably a prerequisite for a lot of simple technological development.